Tim Ferriss’s Sabbatical, Kevin Rose Tries a Medium, Fitness Tools, and More — The Tim Ferriss Show
To create something truly impactful, you need uninterrupted time to dive deep into your craft, not just surface-level engagement.
Kevin Rose: I put this in my mouth and this is going to wrap around both sides.
Tim Ferriss: How are you going to rinse that?
Kevin Rose: I don't know.
Tim Ferriss: All right, let's see it. Let's see it. This is going to be good.
Kevin Rose: I couldn't stop it.
Tim Ferriss: Holy shit.
Kevin Rose: I know what you're thinking.
Tim Ferriss: You definitely bought that on PornHub.
Kevin Rose: Hello, friends and family. Welcome to the Random Show. I am here in my studio with Tim Ferriss. Tim, you're here in my house.
Tim Ferriss: I know, it's so nice.
Kevin Rose: I shouldn't say that my studio is in my house. We can still see that. It's fine.
Tim Ferriss: It's in your Batcave.
Kevin Rose: I'm glad you're here, brother.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: It's good to see you in person.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it's great to see you. I'm really, really thrilled that it worked out. And what better way to get off of my podcast sabbatical than with saying hi to my good friend Kevin.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. How did that feel, by the way?
Tim Ferriss: So the sabbatical, first time in 10 years that I've taken a break from the podcast, and it's been four months, roughly, of sharing a lot of the greatest hits. And it's been a combination of feeling fantastic. I've been working on other projects that are really energizing for me, including my first new book in the seven years that I've been working on.
Kevin Rose: That's not a sabbatical, by the way.
Tim Ferriss: Well, usually though, in fairness, the word sabbatical is typically used in academic circles. When they take a break from teaching, they do other things. And I think you and I, if we're being honest, are both working dogs. We can take breaks, but it's like you take some type of working dog, like a border collie, you stick it in your apartment in New York City and it doesn't run, and you're like, "Why is it chewing the couch?" It's because it has to run. For me, to do the deep work of books is just a different shift, a different gear than feeling the pressure of putting out a podcast once or twice a week.
Kevin Rose: Do you think that idea of shifting between those two — podcast and then book, podcast, book — if you had to do that, it breaks up your train of thought too much or so much so that you wouldn't be able to have — do you need the undivided time?
Tim Ferriss: You need the undivided time.
Kevin Rose: Okay.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, and I'll make a recommendation or something that makes it very clear. There is an essay by Paul Graham, co-founder of Y Combinator, famous for many different reasons. He is also a spectacular writer and a very good painter, I believe. He wrote an essay called "The Top Idea in Your Mind," or "A Top Idea in Your Mind." It talks about effectively attention as a currency and the importance of a separate concept, maker's schedule versus manager's schedule. The importance of uninterrupted blocks of time is particularly crucial when dealing with complex tasks. This is true for coding, for instance, and also true for writing, where you're juggling 27 balls in the air.
Kevin Rose: Right.
Tim Ferriss: If you get distracted and you drop four, you have to start over again. You have to build that rhythm, and it takes a really long time. So if I'm thinking about the pressures of, or the prep for, even if I'm having fun, of a podcast, it's basically robbing myself of, let's just call it 20, 30, 40, 50 percent of the subconscious cycles that I could apply to the book even when I'm not thinking about it.
Kevin Rose: For something like this, obviously we're just bullshitting, but I'd imagine a typical guest for you on the kind of research and due diligence side is like, is that a couple of days' work for you in terms of —
Tim Ferriss: A couple of days. In the case of some guests, it can be a few weeks if it's way outside of my normal areas of expertise.
Kevin Rose: Oh, interesting.
Tim Ferriss: Even if we look at a few days, it's a lot of prep. It's a lot of thinking about the interview even when I'm done prepping, which avenues I might take based on answers that go in a particular direction. So I take the craft of podcasting very seriously. Although it's been a chance for me, I wanted to take this sabbatical not just to work on the book, but to think about the first 10 years. They have been great. If I continue to do this, which I would like to do, how do I keep it as exciting for me personally as possible? And if I do that, can I differentiate it in a podcast ecosystem that is increasingly oversaturated?
Kevin Rose: Yes. This is the reason I just stopped doing podcasts.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: Well, I didn't stop it, but I cut back to one episode every six weeks. It's because when I have a guest on, I totally get what you were saying. I remember I hit you up; I had a dear friend that launched a new book, and you're like, "Hey, I'm not doing any new books." When you look at that person, great book, I loved it, they did 10 podcasts and they all talk about the same thing. So then you're just playing the game of, "Okay, maybe I want Tim's version, maybe I want whoever else, the top ten podcaster out there."
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. You're eating kung pao chicken no matter what.
Kevin Rose: Right.
Tim Ferriss: It's just whose sauce is slightly different?
In a saturated podcast landscape, quality over quantity is the key to standing out and staying passionate.
In today's podcast landscape, many creators are grappling with the challenge of differentiating themselves in an increasingly oversaturated ecosystem. Kevin Rose shared his perspective on this issue, explaining that he has significantly reduced his podcast output. He stated, "I cut back to one episode every six weeks." This decision stemmed from his experience with guests who often appear on multiple podcasts, discussing the same topics. Tim Ferriss echoed this sentiment, noting that listeners often find themselves consuming similar content, saying, "You're eating kung pao chicken no matter what."
Kevin continued, emphasizing that simply replicating what others are doing does not contribute positively to the podcasting ecosystem. He remarked, "It doesn't feel is additive to the ecosystem to just do the same thing that's going around on the circuit." Tim then shared his reflections on the future of his podcast, considering a barbell approach to guest selection. He expressed a desire to interview either obscure individuals who have not been widely heard of or high-profile figures like Jeff Bezos, while avoiding the middle ground filled with authors promoting their latest books.
Tim clarified that, in interviews with well-known figures, he aims to delve into more personal topics rather than typical business discussions. He stated, "I'd want to make it more personal," and expressed a desire for the content to be evergreen, avoiding trends that would quickly become irrelevant. He acknowledged that this approach might lead to a financial haircut, but he values the long-term engagement of his audience over short-term gains. He explained, "If I get so apathetic or bored that I stop doing the podcast, that's the end of the income period."
Kevin supported Tim's approach, stating, "I'd much rather see the longevity of Tim and higher-quality episodes than just banging them out every single week." Tim reflected on his past compromises and mentioned his interest in co-hosted catch-ups with friends. He envisioned engaging in conversations with close friends who are adept at asking questions, which would enhance the interview experience. He noted, "I think that would be great. I think that'd be super additive to my life."
As the conversation shifted, Kevin introduced his friend Addison, a part-time bartender and AI entrepreneur. He highlighted the rapid changes in AI technology, recalling his initial experiences with an AI model that was "pretty good" but still recognizable as artificial. Tim responded with familiarity, saying, "Yes. Uncanny Valley." This exchange illustrated the dynamic nature of both the podcasting world and the evolving landscape of technology, emphasizing the importance of innovation and personal connection in content creation.
The blend of humor and genuine connection is what makes conversations memorable and engaging.
The All-In Podcast has become massively popular because of that interplay, and it's fun. I always enjoy this type of banter.
Kevin Rose: We've got lots to cover today.
Tim Ferriss: Why don't you hop in?
Kevin Rose: Addison, are you around? We have my dear friend Addison, who lives here in L.A. He is a part-time semi-professional bartender mixologist—not really, but he does that for fun. He also runs an AI company part-time called PicStudio.AI, which just came out with a new model. You know how these AI models are changing so fast, right?
Tim Ferriss: Yes.
Kevin Rose: When I was first messing around with this with him a while ago, it was pretty good. It was good. I used it as a headshot for a couple of places, but you could still look at it, and if you squinted, you'd be like, "AI." Right?
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Uncanny Valley. You'd be like, "Wait a second."
Kevin Rose: So they came out with the new model, and I wanted to show you. We'll see if Addison is going to make us some drinks as well. I want to show you a couple of pictures of yourself. Dude, this is a brand new model.
Tim Ferriss: Holy shit. That's insane.
Kevin Rose: Is that insane?
Tim Ferriss: And we'll put these up on YouTube and other places so people can see the images. That's terrifying.
Kevin Rose: Dude, how real does that look?
Tim Ferriss: Looking good. This should be your new dating profile picture.
Kevin Rose: You're a little preppy there. The cargo shorts.
Tim Ferriss: I'm a little preppy, but this is like—
Kevin Rose: The ocean looks nice.
Tim Ferriss: What's crazy is the kind of full body dimension accuracy.
Kevin Rose: Yeah.
Tim Ferriss: That's nuts.
Kevin Rose: He was saying that you can use the prompt now to say this shirt type or is your Steve Jobs.
Tim Ferriss: So looking at these photos, I would say even I would be like, "Wait a second—"
Kevin Rose: Did I take that photo?
Tim Ferriss: Did I ever take that photo? No, that's not me. That is terrifying.
Kevin Rose: I know.
Tim Ferriss: It's terrifying.
Kevin Rose: It's awesome though, at the same time.
Tim Ferriss: It's awesome and terrifying.
Kevin Rose: Yeah.
Tim Ferriss: And in short order, we're already seeing memes turned into videos.
Kevin Rose: Yes.
Tim Ferriss: Right? It's going to be the Wild West.
Kevin Rose: It's going to be crazy. Speaking of looking good, though—
Tim Ferriss: You're looking great.
Kevin Rose: And I want to do your dating life update as well.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, my God.
Kevin Rose: But we need a drink first. Addison?
Darya: Yeah, he's coming.
Kevin Rose: Okay. Jesus. One job, two jobs, AI, and this. I'm just kidding. Just kidding.
Tim Ferriss: Speaking of looking good, do you want to show off your tattoo?
Kevin Rose: Oh, yeah. I just got a little crane here. Jess Mascetti on Instagram, she's amazing. A New York-based tattoo artist, she's done Bruce Willis and a bunch of other really famous people in the past.
Tim Ferriss: I was wondering why you had Bruce Willis on your forearm.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, exactly.
Tim Ferriss: How did you choose that?
Kevin Rose: So you probably know this, but in Japanese lore, children's books, and others, the crane is a symbol because of its length that can span Heaven and Earth. It is used as a bridge for souls to transfer between heaven and earth. I just like that lore. It's cool. I got the meditator done by her on the front of me as well, so I got both. She's insanely, insanely talented.
Tim Ferriss: Very talented. Yeah. Beautiful artwork.
Kevin Rose: We'll link to her profile in the old show notes. So you were looking really good on Instagram, and you posted that you got a vampire facial done.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Vampire facial. So I put up a photo that popped up on my phone. It was generated by the phone, and it had today, eight years ago, and it was a photo of me from eight years ago. I realized, which I more or less hoped would be the case and really pushed forward to was like, "All right, I lost my hair pretty early, and then I looked older than my friends." I was like, "I just need to make it the next 10 years and train my off and watch my diet." I think I'll kind of flatline or plateau in terms of how I look.
Kevin Rose: Right.
Tim Ferriss: And so the photos made it look like I had largely not aged in eight years.
Kevin Rose: It looked amazing.
Tim Ferriss: It looked amazing. So I put up "Eight years on the Romanian Vampire Protocol trademark," and then I put (RVP) in parentheses, "will do wonders for your skin." It was a total joke on my part.
Kevin Rose: Right.
Tim Ferriss: Unbeknownst to me, though.
Kevin Rose: Well, you turned off comments too.
Tim Ferriss: I turned off comments. Yeah, there's a lot of story behind that. We won't get into it.
Kevin Rose: But the reason that was...
Aging is inevitable, but how you take care of yourself can make you look ageless.
Tim Ferriss shared his experience regarding his hair loss and how it affected his perception of aging. He mentioned, "I lost my hair pretty early and then I looked older than my friends." This led him to think, "I just need to make it the next 10 years and train my off and watch my diet." He believed that by doing so, he would "flatline or plateau in terms of how I look."
Kevin Rose responded positively, saying, "It looked amazing." Tim then noted, "I think I had largely not aged in eight years." He humorously referred to his regimen as "Eight years on the Romanian Vampire Protocol trademark," adding, "(RVP) will do wonders for your skin." This was intended as a joke, but Tim was unaware of the reactions it would provoke. Kevin pointed out that many people were giving feedback, saying, "There is such a thing as a vampire facial," and he initially thought Tim was serious about it.
Kevin recounted his recent visit to the dermatologist, stating, "I go in once a year and get all your warts and shit looked at to make sure you don't have cancer." He mentioned that the dermatologist offered him "some good shit." Tim remarked on Kevin's appearance, noting, "Now that I'm looking at your eyes, we were talking about crow's feet and turning them back into crow knuckles. I don't see anything." Kevin appreciated the compliment, saying, "Thank you for the compliment."
However, Kevin expressed his reluctance to undergo typical cosmetic procedures, stating, "I don't want to get botox all on my face and shit." Tim humorously referred to the consequences of such procedures, saying, "You don't want to be a lizard cat?" Kevin agreed, emphasizing that the results often look horrible and that one could end up looking like a "plastic dude."
The conversation shifted to the vampire facial, which involves drawing blood, spinning it, and creating something known as "platelet rich plasma." Kevin confirmed that he had undergone this procedure before, but not the facial. Tim explained that he had used PRP prior to writing The 4-Hour Body in 2010, as it was utilized for joint degeneration and orthopedic issues. He described his experience with interarticular joint injections in his elbows and shoulders.
Kevin inquired about a specific incident, asking, "That's not the one you got infected by, was it?" Tim recounted a troubling experience where a clinic used the wrong injection site, leading to a severe infection. He explained, "Whenever you inject anything, there's a chance that you introduce pathogens through the skin." He detailed how the injection led to his elbow swelling to the size of a volleyball within 48 hours.
Tim recalled a late-night conversation with a doctor friend who advised him to go to the emergency room immediately. He said, "You need to go to the emergency room immediately. Here's the one you should go to. Tell them this." After following her advice, he ended up having "copious amounts of just disgusting monster fluid" removed from his elbow.
Kevin humorously remembered visiting Tim in the hospital, recalling, "You squirted juice out of your arm." Tim confirmed this, saying, "There was a syringe full of all this disgusting juice," and playfully squirted it at Kevin like a turkey baster, prompting Kevin to exclaim, "You fucker." The conversation concluded with Kevin expressing gratitude, saying, "Thank you so much, sir. This looks amazing."
Sometimes, the most unexpected moments lead to the best insights about life and love.
In a conversation about a recent medical emergency, Tim Ferriss recounted an incident where he was advised to go to the emergency room. He said, "Touch your elbow. Is it hot?" When he confirmed it was, he was instructed, "You need to go to the emergency room immediately. Here's the one you should go to. Tell them this." Following this advice, he found himself in the emergency room, where, a few hours later, they were removing "copious amounts of just disgusting monster fluid."
Kevin Rose chimed in, recalling how he received a message from Tim saying, "I'm in the emergency room," and that he had "got this infection." Concerned, Kevin decided to check in on Tim. He humorously recounted, "Didn't some of it squirt against the wall?" To which Tim responded, "There was a syringe full of all this disgusting juice." Tim then joked, "And so I squirted it at you like a turkey baster." Kevin laughed, saying, "That's right. And I was like, 'You fucker.'"
As the conversation shifted, Addison brought over drinks, and Kevin expressed his gratitude, saying, "Thank you so much, sir." Tim asked, "What is it?" to which Addison replied, "Tequila martini." Kevin added, "This is your tequila too that you invested in," referring to Tim's investment in LALO tequila. Tim noted, "Oh, yeah. Check it out. Only alcohol brand I've ever invested in." Kevin humorously remarked, "So yeah, you squirted staph infection at me, you fucker," to which Tim acknowledged, "I did." Kevin reflected, "Looking back at that, I'm like, that was a pretty dick thing to do," but they both laughed about it.
The conversation then turned to PRP (Platelet-Rich Plasma) treatments. Tim explained, "To be clear, number one, it's your own blood," and noted its effectiveness for orthopedic issues. Kevin described his experience, saying, "They draw about three vials of blood, they spin it, they come back with something that looks like grape juice in the vials." He continued, "Then they take a microneedling kind of like, it almost looked like some type of automatic toothbrush or tattoo gun, almost." He explained how they created "little tiny microholes" on his face and applied the PRP, resulting in some bruising but ultimately reducing lines over time.
Tim complimented Kevin's appearance, saying, "I'm actually kind of shocked looking at your beautiful baby eyes." Kevin shared that he had purchased a package for four treatments, stating, "You saved some money, you got like 20 percent off." He expressed his perspective on aging, saying, "I'm fine getting old... That said, yeah, a couple more years of just looking okay doesn't hurt anybody." Tim agreed, noting that it "helps with the dating life."
The conversation then shifted to modern dating. Kevin asked Tim about his experiences, particularly after his trip to Paris. Tim shared, "I went to an artist's commune effectively, or utopian community," referring to a place called Feÿtopia. Kevin humorously connected it to a scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, mentioning a character who gets stuck in a castle with "20 to 30-year-old women." Tim clarified that while that was the hope, there was a broader spectrum of participants.
Tim then delved into a deeper topic, mentioning a "religious war afoot," referring to various parenting styles and approaches to relationships. He expressed his thoughts on "romance versus radical planning," stating, "When I talk about some of the more systematic ways that I'm approaching dating, what some people will say is that's so unromantic." He challenged listeners to define what romance means, asking, "Walk me through what a week of taking a romantic approach would look like." Kevin found this perspective interesting, prompting further discussion on modern dating dynamics.
Romance isn't just about serendipity; it's about finding someone who complements your life and shares your vision for the future.
In a recent conversation, Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose discussed various aspects of dating and relationships, particularly focusing on the challenges faced by individuals in their 20s and 30s. Ferriss remarked, "We are all but 20 to 30-year-old women," highlighting the demographic they were considering. He expressed his thoughts on the "religious war" that exists in parenting styles, such as "sleep training versus attachment-style parenting," and noted how people often enjoy taking sides in these debates.
Ferriss then introduced the concept of "romance versus radical planning," explaining that when he discusses systematic approaches to dating, some people find it "so unromantic." He challenged them to define what a romantic approach looks like, often finding that they struggle to articulate it, usually associating it with "serendipity." He acknowledged that he provides opportunities for serendipity, mentioning experiences like traveling to Paris or attending events like "Feÿtopia."
He pointed out that younger individuals, particularly those in college or just starting their careers, often experience built-in serendipity. "If you live in a place like Manhattan," he noted, "there's a lot of space for serendipity." He elaborated that younger singles frequently engage in social meetups, making it easier to meet new people. However, as one ages, the dynamics change. Ferriss observed that as friends settle down, they may no longer introduce you to potential partners within the desired age range for starting a family.
Kevin Rose chimed in, noting that many people in their late 20s to mid-30s are indeed thinking about family. Ferriss expressed his desire to find someone who is "very ready, excited to build a family," and who possesses a strong sense of identity and confidence in their skills and passions. He emphasized the importance of finding a partner who is content with their achievements to avoid any "resentment later."
As the conversation progressed, Ferriss shared insights from his dating experiences, particularly with professionals like lawyers and doctors. He noted that these individuals often face challenges in considering family planning due to the extensive time spent in education and career development. "It's been a learning process," he admitted, acknowledging the need to spend more time in major cities to enhance his dating prospects.
When asked about his biggest turnoffs on a date, Ferriss mentioned that repeated lateness without communication is a significant red flag. He stated, "If we're going to build a family together, I need to know you have your shit together." He further elaborated that someone who is consistently late may not have experience operating under stress, which can be problematic in a relationship.
Lastly, Ferriss expressed his desire for a partner who complements him rather than duplicates him. He humorously stated, "Tim Ferriss with long hair is my ultimate nightmare." He concluded by sharing his theory on relationships, suggesting that a successful partnership involves a balance of differences rather than similarities.
In relationships, true compatibility comes from matched polarity, not being a perfect 50/50. Embrace the unique strengths that create balance.
I'm running five minutes late, and I think to myself, "Hey, right around the corner," blah, blah. Tim Ferriss comments on this situation, saying, "If someone's repeatedly late, it means they probably haven't operated in higher stress situations or environments because you get punished for that." Kevin Rose agrees with him. Tim continues, "It doesn't work."
For him, he is looking for someone who is a compliment, not a duplicate. He humorously adds, "Tim Ferriss with long hair is my ultimate nightmare. I don't need to date that person. No. We'd kill each other." Kevin Rose nods in agreement. Tim explains that this varies from person to person, stating, "If you had a slider in the middle, you have, let's just call it perfect androgyny." He elaborates that this is a working theory of his, where he perceives a spectrum of characteristics.
He describes this spectrum as having "perfect, 50/50 feminine and masculine characteristics." As you move out in either direction, you reach about 100 percent masculine or 100 percent feminine. Kevin Rose interjects, "Don't tell me you want 50/50. I think that's bullshit." Tim clarifies, "No, no, I don't want 50/50. What I've seen in couples that really, really work well is they tend to be equally distant from the center."
Kevin finds this perspective interesting. Tim further explains that this is not a gendered thing. He knows couples where the male is playful and has characteristics that might be traditionally defined as feminine, while the wife is like the COO, running the ship. "But they're equally distant from that center point," he notes, suggesting that this equivalent polarity seems to work.
Kevin adds, "I've had this conversation where I find that if you are so in the center and you're like 50/50 and no one is stepping up to be either masculine or feminine in a traditional male-female role, it's very confusing." Tim agrees, saying, "If you look at primates, you look at humans, we like to know where we stand or what we're supposed to do. What is our job?"
He believes this can take many forms, even within a company. "If it's a pure flat meritocracy, no job titles, if things get amorphous, it's going to be very confusing," he states. Kevin concurs, "100 percent." Tim concludes that there is a comfort that can come from matched polarity, which is more about a constellation of characteristics rather than being strictly gendered.
Shifting gears, Kevin asks about the Paris dating scene. Tim expresses his desire to make a couple of recommendations. Kevin is eager to hear them and mentions he has something to show Tim.
Tim introduces Bobby Fingers, saying, "Bobby Fingers is one of my favorite discoveries on YouTube of the last decade." He describes Bobby as "one of the most unbelievably skilled artists, craftsmen, sculptor, polymaths." Tim praises Bobby's humor and writing, noting that he creates "the most bizarre shit you've ever seen in your life."
He explains that Bobby's videos are 10- to 30-minute-long descriptions of him making something beautiful and then hiding it by burying it somewhere. Tim shares specific examples, such as a scene with Michael Jackson where his hair catches on fire and another involving Mel Gibson's DUI stop. He emphasizes, "If you want to see something that I think is pure genius."
Kevin asks if this is a video channel, and Tim confirms, saying, "If you go to Bobby Fingers at Bobby Fingers on YouTube, you can find them on Patreon as well." He believes Bobby should have "hundreds of millions of views." Kevin inquires about Bobby's current following, and Tim mentions that while he has 195,000 followers, it is still decent.
Tim feels a moral, maybe a moral/immoral obligation to recommend people go check this out. He adds, "There will be plenty to offend everyone, but it is so genius and unlike anything I've ever seen in my life." He strongly recommends starting with the Michael Jackson or Mel Gibson videos.
Discovering unique content is like finding hidden gems; some creators deserve way more recognition than they get.
Patreon as well, you can find it at patreon.com/bobbyfingers. Additionally, you can check out his content on YouTube at youtube.com/@bobbyfingers. In my opinion, this guy should have hundreds of millions of views.
Kevin Rose asked, "What's he at now? Is it big?" Tim Ferriss responded, "For what he's doing, I think it is so hard to categorize that it hasn't had as much spread as it deserves." Kevin noted, "195,000 followers, still decent." Tim agreed, saying, "Oh, he is doing well." However, he expressed a strong feeling: "But I really feel a moral, maybe a moral/immoral obligation to recommend people go check this out." Kevin replied, "Oh, this looks amazing." Tim added, "There will be plenty to offend everyone, but it is so genius and unlike anything I've ever seen in my life, I strongly recommend people check it out. And two of my favorites, there are many good ones, but I would say Michael Jackson or Mel Gibson are a great place to start." Kevin responded, "That's awesome. All right. I'll check that out."
By the way, Kevin asked, "Were you doing Ozempic in this shot?" Tim humorously replied, "Oh, wow. Look at that. I'm so glad AI shaved my chest for me too." Kevin remarked, "Dude, that is a legit —" and Tim interjected, "Yeah." Kevin continued, "If you were 007." Tim reflected, "Honestly, what's crazy to me about that —" and Kevin noted, "Is how much you actually look like that." Tim added, "How great I look in those Speedos. But separately is the lighting." Kevin agreed, "Yeah. Makes you want to go back to the gym." Tim quipped, "Why go to the gym when I can just put that up?" Kevin laughed, "Yeah, exactly."
Tim then shared, "Actually, I've been training very hard recently and feeling very good. I'm not taking Ozempic, but I have been using a few different tools that I thought people might find interesting." Kevin encouraged, "Yeah, let's hear." Tim explained, "One which was recommended to me by a two-time silver medalist in Olympic archery, Jake Kaminski. I would also recommend people check out his channel if you want to learn anything about archery, especially recurve. He is amazing, both as a performer, proven performer, but as a teacher."
Tim continued, "So Jake Kaminski with a bunch of Is, Kaminski, he recommended the Outdoorsmans Atlas Trainer Frame System. So what is this? I'll tell you the problem it solves. So I own a bunch of rucking sacks. These are backpacks with weights in them. And there are a few issues with the sets that I've owned to date. One is that they're usually a set weight. You can swap out these huge square plates. Secondly, they don't necessarily have a waist or kidney belt. So the weight is on your shoulders and not also shared on your hips. This particular system is effectively a frame hiking backpack that's very well constructed and it has plate loading on your back. So you can put Olympic plates on it. So any weight plates you might have in a gym or that you might buy at Dick's Sporting Goods or whatever that you could use for barbell, you can slap onto this thing."
Kevin responded, "Oh, that's amazing." Tim elaborated, "So you can adjust it in amazing increments and then use progressive resistance." Kevin asked, "And do you want more weight on your hips? Don't get me wrong, obviously long-term, 50-mile hikes or whatever you want to get the weight onto the hips." He then shared, "I got my DEXA scan done, which I'm sure you've done before. Low radiation calculates all different types of muscle and fat types and bone density. My bone density is going down." Tim agreed, "Yeah, me too."
Kevin continued, "And one of the things that Attia told me and his staff was — rucking. Get weight on the bones so that you can maintain that bone density." Tim confirmed, "Yep." Kevin questioned, "Why throw it on the hips? Why not leave it on the shoulders?" Tim explained, "All right, so there are a few reasons for that. The first is — and we've talked about this a lot on this show and offline too — I've had — it's improved dramatically — but for the last two years, I've been plagued by incredibly painful chronic low back pain."
Kevin noted, "You've had back issues for a long time, dude." Tim continued, "Especially the last two years to the point where there have been moments, say a year, a year and a half ago, where I couldn't stand or sit for more than five minutes." Kevin exclaimed, "Oh, geez." Tim added, "And —" Kevin recalled, "Oh, that's right. You were carrying around that little ball or something that you put behind your back. Wasn't there something you had?"
Tim confirmed, "Yeah, I still have that for really uncomfortable seats if I have to be on say a plane for a few hours or something like that. I use a little Pilates ball, which you can fold up and stick in your pocket. It's actually great for lumbar support." He concluded, "But the point is, I am specifically training for a hunt that I have at the end of this month. I do not hunt often. The first hunt I ever did was for The 4-Hour Chef long ago. That was 2012, but I would've done it probably 2010 or 2011. And I just feel very good about sourcing ethical clean meat with wild harvesting. In this case, it's an elk hunt. I've done exclusively bow for probably close to 10 years now, but part of that —" Kevin interjected, "Well, some of the endangered species stuff you...
Training for a hunt isn't just about the thrill; it's about mastering your body and mind to embrace the challenge.
Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose engage in a conversation about Tim's preparation for an upcoming elk hunt. Tim mentions that he still carries a small Pilates ball for lumbar support during uncomfortable seating situations, such as long flights. He explains, “I am specifically training for a hunt that I have at the end of this month.” Although he does not hunt often, he has a strong belief in “sourcing ethical clean meat with wild harvesting.” His first hunting experience was for The 4-Hour Chef back in 2012, although he likely started hunting in 2010 or 2011.
Tim has been practicing exclusively with a bow for nearly ten years. He emphasizes the importance of proper wildlife management, stating, “You do it the right way. You get tags.” He elaborates on the challenges of hunting at high altitudes, noting that he will be “carrying everything” while bivy hunting, which involves camping in the wilderness. The elevation will range between 9,000 and 12,000 feet above sea level. If he successfully harvests an animal, he will need to field dress it and carry an additional 50 pounds, which could exacerbate his existing lower back issues.
Kevin inquires whether Tim has any help with carrying the meat, to which Tim responds that there might be “one or two people” accompanying him, but they will still need to manage the weight of potentially hundreds of pounds of meat from a larger bull elk. Kevin asks about keeping the meat fresh, and Tim explains that they will hang the meat to cool down before placing it into meat bags. He shares that he often hunts with experienced outdoorsmen, humorously referring to himself as “the slow fat kid.” This motivates him to train hard to avoid embarrassing himself during the trip.
Tim describes his training regimen, which includes rucking and exercises targeting the glute medius, piriformis, and hip rotators. He notes that this training has helped reduce his lower back pain. He advises that a combination of rucking, kettlebell swings, push-ups, and core work is sufficient for effective training. Kevin agrees, sharing his own experience with rucking, which he does three to five days a week for four miles each time.
As their conversation continues, Addison joins them with drinks, introducing a cocktail called Fairbanks, made with apricot liqueur, bitters, and rye whiskey. Kevin expresses his familiarity with the drink and they all share a toast. Tim appreciates the drink, noting, “That’s really nice,” and Addison assures him that it’s not too sweet, which aligns with Tim's preferences.
Dating varies greatly across cultures, and finding someone who shares your values is key to building a family.
Tim Ferriss and Addison share a moment of appreciation. Tim mentions, "Bitters and rye whiskey," to which Addison responds, "I didn't have other glasses and stuff so I —" followed by Kevin Rose expressing gratitude with, "Oh, yeah. Appreciate that. Cheers." Addison then excitedly asks, "Oh, my god. Do you smell this stuff?" Kevin agrees, stating, "Exactly. Tim has to board a flight after this —" as Tim prepares to indulge with, "Here we go."
The conversation shifts to Fireball shots, with Kevin enthusiastically saying, "Yeah, Fireball shots." Tim raises his glass, "Cheers, Kevin," and they all join in, "Cheers." Addison expresses curiosity, "I want to watch the reaction," as Kevin adds, "There we go." Tim captures the moment with, "Reaction shot," while Kevin notes, "This is one of his favorite drinks to make." Tim compliments the drink, "That's really nice," and Addison acknowledges, "I know you said not too sweet. I try to —" to which Tim confirms, "It's not too sweet." Kevin chimes in, "Isn't that good?" and Tim appreciates the fancy ice cubes, saying, "And it has the fancy ice cubes too." Addison adds, "Spirit forward, for sure too," and Tim humorously states, "Yeah. Spirit forward. That's in my dating bio."
The conversation then transitions to dating in Europe. Tim shares, "Well, part of what I was interested to see — I spent almost eight weeks in Europe was, how does dating differ in different places in Europe?" Kevin responds, "They're a little softer out there though. You like that." Tim clarifies, "Not necessarily. Not necessarily." Kevin, surprised, asks, "Really?" Tim elaborates, "No. So it varies tremendously by country, I would say. And of course there's a huge range within each country, but say in — dating in France is very different from dating in Madrid, which is very different from dating in other places." He continues, "It really varies tremendously, but part of what I'm hoping for is finding someone, and these women exist, but a lot of women, understandably from a million reasons, feel very conflicted and are put in I think a difficult position frankly when thinking about career, kids. Basically trying to do more than any person in history had to do before 50 years ago."
Kevin interjects, "All right, let's not go by the back end into this. We can —" but Tim insists, "No, I'm just saying —" to which Kevin acknowledges, "No, I hear what you're saying though." Tim expresses the challenge, "It's very challenging. But what I want to get a real clear signal on is that somebody is excited to be a mom in the same way that I'm excited to be a dad and that it's not, well all my friends are getting married. I guess this is what you do. Even though I'm going to make all these compromises and might resent it later. I don't want to subject a kid to that potential risk, right?" Kevin wisely responds, "It's wise of you." Tim concludes, "Yeah. So that's what I'm looking for, but there isn't some Garden of Eden where you magically just walk down Whole Foods and pick up a woman like that. But there are some significant cultural differences from place to place." Kevin agrees, "Yeah."
The conversation shifts again as Kevin announces, "All right, so I have a gift for you." Tim responds, "I have a gift? How kind of you. Oh, wow." Kevin reveals, "This is called a Feno. This is my buddy's new startup." Tim expresses gratitude, "Thank you." Kevin explains, "And in the self-experimenting kind of crazy vein of things, I want to show you this. Now, Feno. F-E-N-O." Tim confirms, "Yeah." Kevin continues, "So this is — okay, this is a beta. Okay, so you can't laugh at me because remember you're going to be doing this by yourself, okay?" Tim humorously reacts, "Oh, god." Kevin reassures, "This is not like a Fleshlight or anything." Tim, surprised, responds, "What the fuck?"
Kevin elaborates, "So this is a medically proven way to brush your entire mouth in 20 seconds." Tim is intrigued, "Wow. Okay. That's interesting." Kevin prepares to demonstrate, "So watch this." Tim asks, "Wow, you're going to try it?" Kevin confirms, "Yeah, I'm going to take a look at this here. You put those foam in here and so they have this little app that custom creates a mold. I estimated your mouth size." Tim jokes, "You didn't buy this from an ad on PornHub?" Kevin laughs, "So this is going to look a little mouth aggressive. Okay? So if you're watching the video —" Tim quips, "Spirit forward, mouth aggressive. That's also my bio." Kevin agrees, "Exactly."
Kevin explains the concept further, "So what you do is that this was created by a couple of founders that obviously one of them was a dentist and they figured out that compliance is really hard with — people say — everyone says they floss. They don't. I do, but do you floss?" Tim confidently states, "Oh, seven times a day." Kevin prepares to demonstrate, "So check this out. I put this in my mouth and this is going to wrap around both sides." Tim questions, "How are you going to rinse that?" Kevin admits, "I don't know." Tim encourages, "All right, let's see it. Let's see it. This is going to be good." Kevin humorously states, "I couldn't stop it." Tim reacts, "Holy shit." Kevin anticipates Tim's thoughts, "I know what you're thinking." Tim jokes, "You definitely bought that on PornHub." Kevin laughs, "No, I did not, but it works surprisingly well." Tim concludes, "I'll try it.
Sometimes the most unconventional solutions are the most effective.
Kevin Rose: Exactly. So what you do is that this was created by a couple of founders, and obviously one of them was a dentist. They figured out that compliance is really hard with — people say — everyone says they floss. They don't. I do, but do you floss?
Tim Ferriss: Oh, seven times a day.
Kevin Rose: So check this out. I put this in my mouth and this is going to wrap around both sides.
Tim Ferriss: How are you going to rinse that?
Kevin Rose: I don't know.
Tim Ferriss: All right, let's see it. Let's see it. This is going to be good.
Kevin Rose: I couldn't stop it.
Tim Ferriss: Holy shit.
Kevin Rose: I know what you're thinking.
Tim Ferriss: You definitely bought that on PornHub.
Kevin Rose: No, I did not, but it works surprisingly well.
Tim Ferriss: I'll try it.
Kevin Rose: I got one for you.
Tim Ferriss: Thank you.
Kevin Rose: I've got to say that I do love — it has sensors in there. I know, I know.
Tim Ferriss: I bet it does.
Kevin Rose: You're doing it by yourself so you don't look like you're getting mouth-raped every time.
Tim Ferriss: I can see you winking. I can see you winking.
Kevin Rose: It is aggressive, but I will say that —
Tim Ferriss: Aggressive.
Kevin Rose: — it does a very good job cleaning.
Tim Ferriss: Aggressive but effective.
Kevin Rose: Aggressive but effective. And it is 20 seconds, which is great. They have sensors that actually scan your gums and look at gum health and can send it back to your doctor.
Tim Ferriss: What? On that device?
Kevin Rose: On the device, built into the device. So that your doctor can actually see recession and things that are happening with your gums. So it's a very tech-forward device. It's crazy.
Tim Ferriss: You know, I had my — my first real surgery was when I was a kid for receding gingiva. I actually had a huge piece of my upper — well, I guess it's your only — palate removed and grafted —
Kevin Rose: Holy shit.
Tim Ferriss: — onto my lower gums.
Kevin Rose: From sugar and shit? What were you doing?
Tim Ferriss: No, no. It was just genetic. My gums were receding when I was a kid. I don't know how old I was. Maybe 12, something like that. It was brutal.
Kevin Rose: That's the first time I've ever done that. That was —
Tim Ferriss: Oh.
Kevin Rose: — vigorous.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it's a —
Kevin Rose: I'm so —
Tim Ferriss: It stretched.
Kevin Rose: — upset that I did not video that from this direction.
Tim Ferriss: We've got —
Kevin Rose: Go here. We've got that camera right there.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, that's the slow-mo. We need that in slow-mo. The intro to the episode.
Kevin Rose: Listen, hey, you know what's funny is when I was putting together these stories for The Random Show, I'm like, I love — if you look back historically at all the years we've been doing this episode, we've had some of the most craziest, stupidest shit and talked about the dumbest stuff. I mean, we already today talked about you squirting your freaking infectious fluid at my body.
Tim Ferriss: That's true. That's true.
Kevin Rose: We've done some weird shit and so I always try to find stuff. I mean, this is both cool and —
Tim Ferriss: Every once in a while, one of those things. Five years later, look at that. It's everywhere.
Kevin Rose: Exactly.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: Exactly. Remember dude, I talked about Ethereum for the first time on this show, before it launched.
Tim Ferriss: You did. When was that? That was — God, that was a long time ago. That was when I was still living in my first place in San Francisco.
Kevin Rose: I watched the clip and I'm like, "Oh, there's this one cryptocurrency. Usually [inaudible]" And you're like, "No, no, no. Tell me, tell me." And I'm like, "Well it hasn't launched yet." And you're like, "What is it?" I'm like, "Well, it's called Ethereum."
Tim Ferriss: When was that? That was like 20 — it had to be —
Kevin Rose: I have to go back and look.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, 2014 or something. I mean, it was way back then. It was way back in the day. I remember exactly where we were sitting by the fireplace in my first rental in San Francisco.
Kevin Rose: It was a cool spot.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: All right, your turn. What do you got?
Tim Ferriss: My turn? Well, let's see. I would say that I can't say too much about it. You're going to hate that. We never asked what your book was about. But anyway, I can't really —
Kevin Rose: So I know you never talk about that shit.
Tim Ferriss: I'll talk about a superstition that may actually have something to it. So I, as well as a handful of other authors I know really well who've written a lot of books, feel like there is such a thing as, let's call it mimetic release. And what I mean by that is I think it's fairly frequently observed that you'll have some, as an example, intractable.
Ideas have a way of surfacing simultaneously across the globe—it's like a collective consciousness at work.
In a conversation between Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose, Tim reflects on a memorable moment from 2014, recalling, "I remember exactly where we were sitting by the fireplace in my first rental in San Francisco." Kevin agrees, stating, "It was a cool spot."
As the discussion progresses, Kevin prompts Tim for more insights, asking, "What do you got?" Tim hesitates, saying, "I can't say too much about it," and acknowledges that Kevin might be frustrated since they never discussed the content of his upcoming book. He then introduces an intriguing concept he refers to as "mimetic release." Tim explains that he and several other authors have observed a phenomenon where, after years of stagnation on a scientific problem, multiple researchers across the globe make breakthroughs within a short time frame. He notes, "What is happening there?" and admits that while it may sound like "magical thinking," he finds it difficult to explain.
Tim elaborates, "When people talk about ideas, that idea seems to suddenly pop up in a lot of other places." He acknowledges that this could be attributed to expectancy bias, using the analogy, "If you buy a Hyundai — It's a red Hyundai — all you see is red Hyundais." However, he believes there is more to it, which is why he prefers not to discuss the core concepts of his book before its release. He shares that he has "probably five to 600 pages drafted," to which Kevin responds, "Oh, shit, it's a big book." Tim admits that while his drafts are extensive, they will likely be condensed to around 500 or 400 pages.
Kevin inquires whether Tim has used any AI in crafting the book, to which Tim replies, "I did not." Kevin asks if he plans to apply AI in the future, and Tim considers using it in conjunction with test readers to identify gaps in the material. He mentions, "I could see using it that way."
Kevin shares an interesting experience he had with AI, explaining, "I created a custom ChatGPT and I uploaded — I went back and I looked at every single book that Warren Buffett had ever recommended." He describes how he uploaded the PDFs of these books and asked the AI for investment advice, finding the results "freaking fascinating." Tim suggests that Kevin could also include Buffett's annual letters in his AI queries, to which Kevin confirms he has done so, stating, "There's a book about his annual letters that I uploaded into it."
As they continue their discussion, Kevin shares insights he gained from the AI, humorously noting that it often responded with "Index funds" as the answer. He elaborates on the specific questions he asked regarding market timing and the Fed's potential rate cuts, expressing his amazement at the intelligent responses generated by the AI based on historical data.
Tim expresses his excitement about the upcoming book, and Kevin asks, "When will it launch though?" Tim explains that he is considering different release options, including the possibility of a traditional book launch. He mentions, "There will definitely be some new experimental wrinkles to that no matter what."
Kevin inquires about Tim's publishing strategy, recalling that Tim previously used Amazon Publishing. Tim clarifies, "Well, I did Amazon Publishing, which at that time you could consider a traditional publisher." He indicates that for this book, he is open to various formats, stating, "I could very easily see doing ebook audio on my own or through an Amazon platform." Kevin finds this approach interesting, and Tim concludes by mentioning the possibility of a print-only release.
Embrace the evolution of publishing; the future is about flexibility and quality, not just tradition.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it's amazing.
Kevin Rose: It's really cool. Anyway, I'm excited for your book. When will it launch though? When are we talking? I mean, you're 500, 600 pages in.
Tim Ferriss: So I've been thinking about a few different options. One is doing it the way that I've done it in the past, which is to release it all at once as a book launch. There will definitely be some new experimental wrinkles to that no matter what.
Kevin Rose: Traditional publisher? Because before you did Amazon once. You did —
Tim Ferriss: Well, I did Amazon Publishing, which at that time you could consider a traditional publisher. So in structure, it was very similar. They just had the distribution advantage being Amazon. This time around, we'll see. I mean, I could very easily see doing ebook audio on my own or through an Amazon platform.
Kevin Rose: Interesting.
Tim Ferriss: And then possibly doing a print-only deal or doing print-on-demand, frankly. The quality of print-on-demand has improved so much.
Kevin Rose: It's insane. Yeah.
Tim Ferriss: It's absolutely perfectly sufficient.
Kevin Rose: Dude, I was at Ryan Holiday's — I went to his bookstore outside of Austin, which is amazing.
Tim Ferriss: Painted Porch. It's a great bookstore.
Kevin Rose: He has the best bookstore. What a life. I love him. He's such a good dude. I went to his bookstore and — beautiful — it's such a beautifully curated art project that is driven by him.
Tim Ferriss: Yes.
Kevin Rose: If you want to see sort of a new manifestation of the best of old school bookstores, visit Painted Porch. And it's about a half hour to 40 minute drive outside of Austin. He's got cats walking around there. It's all of his favorite books.
Tim Ferriss: He even has cats.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, they're even cats for the cat lovers. But the thing I would say that was really cool is that he actually had his books printed, like higher-end versions of his books, leather-bound, super high-end versions that he had done that were just insane quality.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, they're beautiful.
Kevin Rose: And those are kind of as you need them, kind of like on-demand. It's amazing.
Tim Ferriss: A bit of trivia for folks. Well, I'll give trivia on trivia. So trivia, "tri via" means three roads. It's actually these little tchotchkes that travelers would put down for good luck on their path at intersections of paths. That's where trivia comes from. But separately, The Painted Porch refers to Stoicism, which comes from the Greek stoa because early iterations of the philosophical tenets of Stoicism were taught in this open-air porched area. So that is why his bookstore is called The Painted Porch.
Kevin Rose: That's amazing.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, we've got 14-year-old Toaster, almost 14 here, coming to visit us.
Tim Ferriss: You're saying he's totally deaf, but he still remembers me. He came up, licked my face.
Kevin Rose: He did. He's done courses of rapamycin.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah?
Kevin Rose: Yeah. So I put him on it a few years ago.
Tim Ferriss: And?
Kevin Rose: And it seems to be working. I mean, dude, you see him. He's moving around great. And he's almost 14.
Tim Ferriss: I know. This brings back so many memories. I mean, back way, way back in the day. I'm looking at Darya. Hi, Darya. I remember recording on your couch. This was back still in Digg days and Toaster was a little pupper and he was chewing on the XLR cable and almost killed our podcast and killed himself. And here he is, all these years later, wagging his tail.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, I caught him halfway through one time, an actual full voltage cable out of the wall and it was just — yeah, it was horrible.
Tim Ferriss: So rapamycin, we've probably talked about it before, but people can check out — I'm not sure what this current status is, but The Dog Aging Project. I did a podcast with Matt Kaeberlein.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. University of Washington. You and I both —
Tim Ferriss: Supported that.
Kevin Rose: — supported that, funding-wise to fund that and power that study.
Tim Ferriss: Yep.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. So did Peter Attia. Yeah, so did Brian —
Tim Ferriss: Armstrong.
Kevin Rose: — Armstrong from Coinbase. We all kind of chipped in to see what would happen.
Tim Ferriss: Really, really, really fascinating work. So people who are interested in rapamycin for potential longevity applications can take a look at that. And I did an interview separately with Matt Kaeberlein, which I really, really enjoyed.
Kevin Rose: I have one quick update. One just for people to check out. So Original Love of Henry Shukman's new book, who is my Zen master. Got to give him a plug. He's such an awesome human.
Tim Ferriss: He's a great guy.
Kevin Rose: And his app, The Way, is a fantastic meditation app. You and I are both investors in it. I always want to give Henry some love because he's such a good soul. The book is fantastic.
Tim Ferriss: You did some — that's called Original Love.
Kevin Rose: Original Love, yeah.
Meditation retreats can feel like Hell week for the mind, but the clarity gained is worth every moment of silence.
Kevin Rose: — Armstrong from Coinbase. We all kind of chipped in to see what would happen.
Tim Ferriss: Really, really, really fascinating work. So people who are interested in rapamycin for potential longevity applications can take a look at that. I did an interview separately with Matt Kaeberlein, which I really, really enjoyed. What else do you have?
Kevin Rose: I have one quick update, just for people to check out. So, Original Love, Henry Shukman's new book, who is my Zen master. Got to give him a plug. He's such an awesome human.
Tim Ferriss: He's a great guy.
Kevin Rose: And his app, The Way, is a fantastic meditation app. You and I are both investors in it. I always want to give Henry some love because he's such a good soul. The book is fantastic.
Tim Ferriss: You did some — that's called Original Love.
Kevin Rose: Yes, Original Love. You did some training recently and you sent me the schedule, the daily schedule. What did your daily schedule look like and how long did it last?
Kevin Rose: So, I went to a five-day silent meditation retreat with his master, who is the head of the Zen sect out of Japan. He flew in for this into Santa Fe, New Mexico. I will tell you, when you sit with Henry and you do — I've done a seven-day silent retreat with him in the past. If it's just Mountain Cloud Zen Center, which is his Zen center, it's probably four hours of sitting a day. Then there's walking meditation and a stretching thing. When the Zen master's there, when the guy from Japan's there, it's legit.
Tim Ferriss: Like Hell week.
Kevin Rose: It's Hell week for meditation. So I was up at 5:00 a.m. every morning and I didn't get to bed until probably — released at 8:30 and I was sitting for most of the day.
Tim Ferriss: One thing I wanted to ask you about — because I saw it in there. There's a lot of sitting meditation. I'm like, okay, that sounds uncomfortable, doing that for eight hours a day, which I tried once. People who want to read about my complete implosion —
Kevin Rose: You were also doing mushrooms at the same time.
Tim Ferriss: And fasting for six days. Yeah, people want to read about my self-inflicted implosion, that's in a separate interview, but the chanting before mealtime?
Kevin Rose: Yeah.
Tim Ferriss: What's the story here?
Kevin Rose: In Zen, traditional monasteries and whatnot where they have actual monks, there is a lot of — it is only 10 minutes. It's just kind of reciting.
Tim Ferriss: Only. Try chanting for 10 minutes. Tell me it's only.
Kevin Rose: No, but it's just reciting a lot of the precepts and a lot of core beliefs.
Tim Ferriss: In English? Japanese?
Kevin Rose: Yeah. Sometimes it's in Japanese, sometimes it's in English, depending on who's running it.
Tim Ferriss: Do you have a little psalm book that you read from?
Kevin Rose: Yes. When it's in Japanese, a hundred percent. Yeah. I don't even know what I'm saying. I could be like, "Large Donkey Kong."
Tim Ferriss: McDonald's donkey cock.
Kevin Rose: Yeah.
Tim Ferriss: Garbage bag. Triceratops.
Kevin Rose: I don't know what to say, but it's quite nice. It's just a way to kind of endcap a set and then move into the next thing.
Tim Ferriss: Must feel so good after being totally silent —
Kevin Rose: Oh, my God.
Tim Ferriss: — just to hear some voices.
Kevin Rose: I know. I went out afterwards because I was waiting for my plane to fly out and I went to this place because Santa Fe is known for their chilies, their good chilies. And I had — because you eat vegetarian food the entire week.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I was immediately wondering, how'd that go for you?
Kevin Rose: Oh, dude. I went straight to a double chili burger and a large IPA, straight out the gate.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, God.
Kevin Rose: Which was probably —
Tim Ferriss: Actually, you sent photos.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, yeah. I'm sure I did. To you and Sacca. That's right.
Tim Ferriss: So was that disaster pants at 30,000 feet?
Kevin Rose: It was definitely — my stomach was not happy. I was paying for that. But, yeah. So how much time do you have? Because I know you have —
Tim Ferriss: I have time. I have time.
Kevin Rose: Do you want — I got a really crazy one.
Tim Ferriss: Let's do crazy.
Kevin Rose: Okay. Crazy. Is that —
Tim Ferriss: We can cut it out if you can't, but are you allowed to talk about klotho yet?
Kevin Rose: Yeah. So Peter Attia did a fantastic episode, which we both, I would say, would highly recommend with —
Tim Ferriss: A hundred percent.
Kevin Rose: — Dena, who is a fantastic researcher out of UCSF. She has identified a compound called klotho, which is just absolutely insane.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: So in fairness, it was identified by Japanese research.
Tim Ferriss: Sorry, sorry, my bad.
Kevin Rose: But she's spent a good part of her career.
Tim Ferriss: She's one of the foremost experts in the world.
Kevin Rose: Yes.
Klotho could be the key to reducing dementia risk and boosting brain power—exercise is your best natural source until we unlock its full potential.
Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose engaged in a fascinating discussion about a groundbreaking compound known as klotho. Kevin began by referencing a fantastic episode featuring Dena Dubal, a prominent researcher from UCSF, who has extensively studied klotho. Tim agreed, stating, “A hundred percent.” Kevin elaborated that while klotho was initially identified by Japanese researchers, Dena has dedicated a significant part of her career to understanding its implications. Tim emphasized her expertise, noting, “She's one of the foremost experts in the world.”
Kevin explained that klotho is naturally produced in humans, particularly during high-intensity interval exercise, and that everyone has it circulating in their blood. However, as people age, their levels of klotho decrease. He highlighted that certain genetic polymorphisms can influence klotho production. Specifically, individuals who are overproducers of klotho have a dramatically reduced risk of developing dementia. He compared this to the well-known APOE genes, stating that those with the APOE4 variant are significantly more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease. Kevin noted, “If you have one of these snips and you are way more likely to get it, but you're also an overproducer of klotho, it evens out the playing field.”
Tim responded, “Yeah, it's crazy.” Kevin continued, sharing that while mouse studies have shown that klotho can reverse dementia, even monkeys that receive klotho injections become “20 percent smarter for four weeks.” Tim humorously dubbed this phenomenon “Monkey Limitless.”
Kevin revealed that at True Ventures, they are close to finalizing a significant investment to bring klotho research into human trials within the next year and a half. He asked Tim if he would participate, to which Tim confirmed his involvement, along with Peter Attia. Kevin encouraged Tim to share details about the episode featuring Dena Dubal.
Tim mentioned the episode titled, “A Breakthrough in Alzheimer’s Disease: The Promising Potential of Klotho for Brain Health, Cognitive Decline, and as a Therapeutic Tool for Alzheimer’s Disease.” He expressed personal interest in klotho due to a family history of Alzheimer's, noting, “I have Alzheimer's on both sides of my family.” Kevin pointed out that Tim is a 3-3 genotype, which is less risky than other variants. Tim shared his longstanding interest in therapeutic interventions, recalling his early studies in neuroscience and his initial funding support for Adam Gazzaley’s research.
Kevin acknowledged Tim's contributions, stating, “That's awesome.” Tim then provided a brief overview of Dena Dubal's work, highlighting her focus on the mechanisms of longevity and brain resilience. He described how Dena discusses the formation and distribution of klotho in the body, as well as the factors that impact its levels, such as stress and exercise.
Tim emphasized the importance of exercise, stating, “Exercise is arguably the most potent way to increase your circulating levels of klotho.” He also noted that klotho injections, whether subcutaneous or intramuscular, are simple and not painful, likening it to the administration of Ozempic. Kevin confirmed that the method used in monkeys has been effective and straightforward.
In conclusion, the conversation underscored the potential of klotho as a significant factor in brain health and longevity, with both Tim and Kevin expressing excitement about the future of this research.
Investing in science can change lives, and even a small contribution can accelerate groundbreaking research that impacts brain health.
In this episode, Dena Dubal delves into the intricacies of the longevity factor klotho, discussing its formation and distribution in the body. She highlights the factors such as stress and exercise that impact its level and its profound impact on cognitive function and overall brain health. Tim Ferriss emphasizes the importance of exercise, stating, "Exercise is arguably the most potent way to increase your circulating levels of klotho." He notes that while waiting for klotho to be available as a subcutaneous or intramuscular shot, exercise remains a crucial factor.
Kevin Rose adds to the conversation, mentioning that klotho has already been tested in monkeys, and he compares the potential of klotho to Ozempic for the mind. He expresses excitement about the future of this research, stating, "We'll see. We'll know more in a bit. And once this gets funded, I'm excited to see where it goes." Both Tim and Kevin appreciate the advancements in psychedelic research and the philanthropic efforts surrounding it. Kevin shares that he has started a new Substack, a paid newsletter, where he plans to fund a Matt Walker sleep study. He explains that Walker has identified some antioxidants that he believes can repair a bad night's sleep.
Tim Ferriss describes Matt Walker as an "amazing, super sweet guy, a brilliant researcher" who authored the bestselling book Why We Sleep. Kevin agrees, noting Walker's fantastic research skills and his soothing British accent, saying, "He could read the Cheesecake Factory menu." They both express enthusiasm for supporting innovative scientific research, recognizing that it is often severely underfunded.
Tim points out that with the right funding, significant advancements can be made in science. He reflects on the potential for history-bending scientific developments that could take years to fund through traditional means. He shares his experience of contributing financially to research, stating, "If you're able to cut a check quickly for say 25, 50 grand... you can actually make a difference." Kevin shares a specific example involving Dena Dubal, the principal investigator at UCSF, who needed funding for a klotho study. After a conversation with her, he learned that the study would cost $50,000. He was able to donate stock to fund the research, which allowed Dena to start the study just a week and a half later.
Kevin emphasizes that even smaller contributions can make a difference, saying, "Even $1,000... if you get to know these researchers... you can call them up, you can email them and say, 'Hey, how can I contribute $100 here?'" Tim agrees, noting that contributions are almost always tax-deductible. He adds that the motivation for funding research doesn't have to be grand; it can simply be about catalyzing science that has the potential to change the world, particularly in the case of klotho.
Kevin shares a personal story about his mother, who has dementia but not Alzheimer's. He expresses hope that within a year and a half, they will be able to test klotho in humans, stating, "There's a chance we get this in her in a couple of years and we get some more great memories back." This heartfelt sentiment underscores the urgency and importance of the research being discussed.
Sometimes, the most profound connections come from unexpected places, reminding us that love and awareness can transcend even the toughest challenges.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Oh, almost always, almost always tax-deductible. And I will say, this doesn't have to be a super high concept doing the greatest good for the greatest number of people motivation. It can be, but it is so exciting and gratifying to catalyze science that could, I think without making it sound too exaggerated, change the world literally in the case of say a Klotho.
Kevin Rose: Oh, dude —
Tim Ferriss: And the fact that you can expedite it for relatively the cost of a car is nuts.
Kevin Rose: Dude, so my mom now sometimes sadly thinks my sister is her mom and she has dementia. And thankfully it's not Alzheimer's. So we've been with this for about seven years now. And we're going to put this in humans in a year and a half. My mom's turning 84 in a few weeks. And it's like, I don't know, there's a chance we get this in her in a couple of years and we get some more great memories back. We get a little bit more of even, I can't guarantee what's going to happen, but even just a little bit more awareness would be beautiful, beautiful. So it's like this is what motivates me more than anything.
Tim Ferriss: And we're an age also where it's almost every friend in our same cohort is having this experience.
Kevin Rose: Oh, a hundred percent.
Tim Ferriss: At least one parent, usually both.
Kevin Rose: I'm sure there's probably a thousand people listening right now that are like, "I hear you."
Tim Ferriss: Starting to fray the ends.
Kevin Rose: A hundred percent.
Tim Ferriss: And it's so painful to watch. I remember watching my grandparents kind of descend to the point where they didn't necessarily recognize me or my brother or anything like that. And if you could just add a few years or cut down on the symptoms by 20 percent, it's so significant for not just their quality of life, hopefully, but also the interpersonal relationships and the whole family constellation.
Kevin Rose: The relationships are the big thing. When people go, they go. But just to have that awareness of who is around you when you do go, I think is just such a huge deal. What else you got? I got some crazy ones. I got more crazy ones.
Tim Ferriss: Bring some crazy, bring your crazy.
Kevin Rose: So I talked to my dead dad via a medium.
Tim Ferriss: Okay, all right. Didn't see that coming.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. It was on my list of stories to talk about.
Tim Ferriss: All right, yeah, tell me.
Kevin Rose: So my tattoo artist was out here and gave me this fantastic tattoo. Jess is awesome. And she was like, "Hey, there's this crazy shit that happened to me." And I'm like, "What's up?" And she's like, "I tattooed this woman that was a medium and she gifted me a free session." And I'm like, "Was it crazy?" And she's like, "You have no idea." She's like, "Okay, a bunch of people…" So cute that Toaster's coming to say hi to you.
Tim Ferriss: Toaster just keeps coming to say hi to me.
Kevin Rose: He definitely missed you. So I'm the biggest skeptic on this shit. I take this as entertainment value. And so she was like, "No, you don't understand." Someone, I don't want to get into her personal details, but someone that was not directly related to her, but one step removed from her immediate family had been shot and killed. And this person came in and said, "Listen, I had been..." This is not Googleable, you couldn't have found this anywhere, was like, I am the person that was shot in this particular location at this particular spot, like crazy scary, really accurate. And I was like, "Oh, my God." And she kept going, and I'm not going to go into her personal details, but enough to where I was like, "Give me the number." I want to book this $150 session, it's 150. And so I book it and it's early because she's back east. And I get up at 7:00 a.m., barely have my coffee. And she goes, "Oh, my God, there is this person that is beating down my door to talk to you." And I'm like, "Okay." And she's like —
Tim Ferriss: Wait, this is what the medium said?
Kevin Rose: Medium said, yeah, we were on Zoom. And I'm like, "Okay."
Tim Ferriss: He's got a start-up in dog cosmetics.
Kevin Rose: And please. Yeah, exactly.
Tim Ferriss: They want to pitch you.
Kevin Rose: It's a great pre-money valuation. They only want a million dollars. The dog cosmetics are, it's going to boom, you watch. So it's the next AI. So basically I was like, I'm kind of early, whatever. And I'm like, okay, I'm very Googleable, I am aware of that, and you can find out things about my dad and stuff like that. And she's like, "It's a man. He passed from some heart tension," and my dad died of a heart stroke. And I'm like, okay, well, you can Google that. And then she's describing all kinds of stuff and even including a fight with my mom the night before, little tiny bits. So my sister did it too, and we didn't tell her we were related because my sister has a different last name. And so with my sister, it was like, oh, he's good with numbers. He was an accountant. And he was just saying that, he kept saying the number three. And she's like, "Is there a third sibling?" And I've never told anybody this, but I have a half-sister that I didn't know about, that's never been on the internet. And I was like, I started sobbing, dude, immediately. Because I get that it's entertainment value, but just to feel. And what she said is she goes, "He's very proud of you." And that just hit me like — It's like I don't care if it's real or not, just to hear that. And even if two percent of your body can say that might be real, it's still a powerful experience.
Sometimes the most unexpected experiences can lead to profound healing and connection.
Kevin Rose shares a deeply personal experience regarding a medium session he had after his father's passing. He recalls feeling a sense of heart tension as his father died of a heart stroke. During the session, the medium described various details, including a fight between his parents the night before, which made the experience feel eerily accurate. His sister also participated in a session without revealing their relation, as she has a different last name. The medium mentioned that he was good with numbers and was an accountant, repeatedly stating the number three. This led to the revelation of a half-sister he had never known about, which caused him to start sobbing immediately.
Kevin reflects on the emotional impact of the medium's words, particularly when she said, "He's very proud of you." This statement resonated deeply with him, regardless of whether it was real or not. He describes the experience as therapeutic, noting that the accuracy of the medium's insights was both surprising and unsettling. Tim Ferriss, his conversation partner, asks if the medium missed anything, to which Kevin admits that once you start believing, you don't want to ask questions that might lead to inaccuracies.
Tim expresses his own skepticism about mediums, mentioning his interest in documentaries about mentalists and performers like Derren Brown, who demonstrate impressive abilities that are hard to explain. He contemplates the idea of experiencing a session himself, ideally under conditions that would prevent any prior research or influence. Kevin offers to pay for Tim's session, eager to see if the medium's abilities hold up for someone else.
Tim acknowledges that while he is skeptical, he believes there is much we do not understand about the world, stating, "there's a lot of weird shit that we can't currently explain." He is open to experimenting with mediums, provided there are safeguards in place to prevent self-deception. Kevin adds that the medium did not pressure them for follow-up appointments, which he found refreshing and unusual, as he is typically wary of sales tactics in such situations.
The conversation continues with light-hearted banter about the nature of their experiences, with Tim humorously clarifying that he receives soft tissue treatment weekly, emphasizing that it is simply a massage without any inappropriate implications.
Sometimes the most extraordinary abilities in life come from people who can't explain them, yet their impact is undeniable.
"Our time's up," like a cliffhanger, Kevin Rose remarked. Tim Ferriss responded, "Oh, he gave me five of the winning lottery ticket numbers. Oh, sorry, we're out of time." Kevin agreed, saying it was one of those random things in life that you just walk into and say yes to, and it was weirdly awesome.
Tim then shared his experience, stating, "This is like two drinks definitely informing what I'm about to say." He explained that he gets soft tissue treatment once a week, specifically a massage treatment. Kevin jokingly asked, "Like a handy?" to which Tim clarified, "No. No dragon rolls, no happy endings. I'm saying just massage treatment." He mentioned that he has people who work on him because he has broken his body multiple times.
Kevin understood, saying, "Oh, like a good massage. Okay. Yeah, yeah." Tim elaborated on the topic, noting that there are certain people with bizarre abilities who cannot explain how they fix issues. Kevin interjected, "Like the Reiki people." Tim agreed but added that it doesn't necessarily have to be that far afield from manual therapy. He observed that some individuals have seemingly strange abilities and impressive track records, yet when they try to teach others their methods, it does not translate.
Tim expressed his confusion, stating, "I don't know how to explain that, but there seems to be an extreme variance between outcomes." He continued, explaining that some practitioners are purely secular, effectively acting as architects and carpenters of the human body, capable of predictably effective results based on their understanding. Conversely, there are those who seem to operate on a different channel, leaving him uncertain about how to interpret that phenomenon. He noted that any athlete who has competed for a long time or had extensive manual therapy will likely have a story about someone like this.
Kevin asked, "Why do you say athlete?" Tim responded, "Well, just because they're going to—" and Kevin interjected, "Like flow state stuff or like—" to which Tim clarified that athletes are more likely to injure themselves or have more table time than the average person. He pointed out that the average person may not have had a massage in years, while serious athletes often receive manual therapy at least once a month, if not once a week. For elite athletes, such as Olympic sprinters, they might be getting treatment every day or every other day.
Kevin then posed a question, "Can I ask you a question that you may want to cut from the podcast?" Tim replied, "Sure." Kevin recalled a previous conversation about Tim's ayahuasca sessions, asking, "What is the craziest Tim Ferriss supernatural thing that you've ever seen in your life?" Tim decided to steer away from the term "supernatural," preferring "hypernatural," as he believes these phenomena are not beyond explanation; we just lack the tools to measure them effectively.
Kevin encouraged him, "Give me a couple good ones. Come on." Tim agreed, saying he has a decent amount of flight time and has seen a few things. He explained, "Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to describe what I saw and then I'm going to debunk it." Kevin acknowledged Tim's honesty, stating, "I know you don't lie, which is what's awesome." Tim affirmed, "Yeah, I try not to. And I also try to cross-examine."
Tim recounted that he has witnessed people speak or sing in languages they do not know during certain experiences. Kevin asked, "Like in tongues shit where you're like I can't understand you and they're like [inaudible]?" Tim clarified, "No, no, no, no. You can hear them coherently." Kevin, knowing Tim speaks multiple languages, inquired if they ever spoke a language he understood. Tim confirmed, "Yes," and Kevin pressed for details, asking, "What language?" Tim replied, "Spanish."
Kevin remarked that Spanish is an easy language to pick up, but Tim insisted, "No, no, no, no. These are people without any exposure." Kevin humorously added, "They didn't watch Dora the Explorer or anything as kids." Tim concluded, "Look, I'm not fluent in these languages, but like the Shipibo."
Sometimes the most profound experiences come from the unexpected, challenging our understanding of reality.
In a conversation between Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose, they discuss the intriguing phenomenon of language comprehension in altered states of consciousness, particularly in the context of ayahuasca experiences. Kevin begins by asking Tim if he has ever encountered situations where he couldn't understand what people were saying, to which Tim responds, "No, no, no, no. You can hear them coherently." Kevin, aware of Tim's multilingual abilities, inquires if there were instances where the language spoken was one that Tim understood. Tim confirms, "Yes," specifying that the language was "Spanish." However, he elaborates that the individuals he encountered had "no exposure" to the language, implying they were not familiar with it at all.
Kevin humorously suggests that these individuals could have picked up some language skills from children's programming like Dora the Explorer, but Tim clarifies that these were people who were "coming in blind." He mentions that they couldn't even identify the names of the tribes they were interacting with, which Kevin finds astonishing, exclaiming, "Holy fuck." Tim continues to explain that these experiences involved not just a few words, but "an hour" of coherent communication, which Kevin finds hard to believe.
Tim asserts that he has witnessed these events firsthand and has credible witnesses to back his claims. He describes these witnesses as "real operators" with successful careers, not just individuals engaged in personal development. He recounts an instance where a woman appeared to speak in tongues, and an academic later identified it as "something like ancient BLEEP language." Kevin, intrigued, asks if any of this was recorded, to which Tim responds that it was not.
Tim then considers the skeptical viewpoint, suggesting that perhaps everyone involved was simply "tripping balls," leading them to create elaborate narratives to escape the mundanity of life. He notes that while these experiences are often associated with ayahuasca, they are not exclusive to it. He explains that ayahuasca is a brew made from various plants, such as "Banisteriopsis caapi" and "Psychotria viridis," and likens it to a cocktail, where the effects can vary significantly based on the specific ingredients used.
Kevin shares his recent experience with a delicious cocktail, to which Tim humorously responds that "what is not delicious is ayahuasca." He elaborates that reports of these extraordinary experiences are more common with ayahuasca than with other psychedelics like psilocybin mushrooms or LSD. This is largely due to the group context in which ayahuasca is typically consumed, leading to a higher likelihood of shared experiences and storytelling.
Tim emphasizes that the shared experience in ayahuasca circles contributes to the frequency of these reports, suggesting that participants may perceive and interpret their experiences through the lens of their expectations. He acknowledges that while these substances are classified as hallucinogens, "there's more to the story."
As the conversation progresses, Tim reflects on the credibility of individuals sharing such experiences. He suggests that it is essential to consider whether these individuals have demonstrated "the ability to reason and logic their way through other complicated problems." If someone has a track record of rational thinking yet still encounters these extraordinary experiences, it adds a layer of intrigue. Kevin then shares an anecdote about having a jet navy fighter pilot named Ryan Graves on his podcast, further illustrating the diverse backgrounds of those who explore these altered states.
Evaluate the credibility of the source before taking their claims seriously; expertise matters.
When you're listening to anyone talk about crazy town, which is what we're discussing right now, it's important to consider whether the speaker has demonstrated the ability to reason and logic their way through other complicated problems. If they haven't shown this ability and they believe in things like the Tooth Fairy, spirits, and ayahuasca, then you really don't have a basis for judging their judgment. However, if someone comes in who is demonstrably world-class in various domains, a real operator who is very skeptical, and nonetheless has these experiences, saying, "What the fuck was that?" then it becomes much more interesting.
Kevin Rose shared an experience he had on his podcast with a retired Navy fighter pilot named Ryan Graves. Graves is the one who came out and said, "I saw some crazy alien ships in the sky." They talked for an hour and a half about what it's like to be a fighter pilot, the training involved, and the sensors they have in these jets. Kevin remarked that there is nothing more credible than this guy—the most credible dude on earth—as he is a retired Navy fighter pilot who was not kicked out.
As the conversation continued, Addison interjected, asking for the corner bit of something, which led to a light-hearted exchange about food and drinks. Tim Ferriss noted the presence of egg whites and complimented the apricot liqueur, while Kevin pointed out that what he had was water. They shared a toast, with Tim saying, "To experimentation," and Kevin responding, "That's outstanding."
After this, Tim Ferriss suggested they share a few recommendations for things that he found compelling in recent months. He mentioned Jerry Seinfeld's Duke commencement speech, calling it amazing and urging Kevin to check it out. He also brought up an old documentary, David Hockney: The Art of Seeing, which dives into Hockney's perspective on art and life through interviews. Tim described Hockney as perhaps Britain's best-loved living artist and noted that the documentary is surprisingly hard to find.
In terms of books, Tim recommended Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy, which he described as one of the most beautifully written yet brutal books he has ever read. He advised that it takes about 20 or 30 pages to really get into it, but it is worth the effort. He mentioned that it has been selected by The Atlantic as one of the great American novels of the past 100 years. Kevin was intrigued and asked if it was available on Audible, to which Tim confirmed it was, noting the great narration. He quoted Michael Herr, who described it as "a classic American novel of regeneration through violence," and emphasized that McCarthy can only be compared to our greatest writers like Melville. Tim concluded that the book is brutal in the sense that it is set in the Wild West.
Sometimes the most beautiful stories are wrapped in the harshest truths.
Tim Ferriss begins by discussing a book that he describes as one of the most beautifully written books I've ever read, while also noting that it is probably the most brutal book he has encountered. He mentions that the book is called Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. When Kevin Rose asks him about the brutality of the book, Tim explains that it is set in the Wild West, where the Hobbesian behavior of humans and the evil acts of brutality depicted are beyond vile.
Tim shares that he listened to the audiobook version, which he found to have great narration. He mentions that the book has been selected by The Atlantic as one of the great American novels of the past 100 years. He quotes Michael Herr, who describes it as a classic American novel of regeneration through violence, comparing McCarthy to our greatest writers like Melville and calling it his masterpiece.
Kevin expresses curiosity about whether the book could be adapted into a film, to which Tim responds that it would be hard to make an adaptation and hard to sell, as audiences might leave theaters feeling bewildered. Despite its brutality, Tim emphasizes the gorgeous prose of the book, stating that it made him feel like he should just hang up my spurs and be done with writing. He is in awe of the writing, remarking, this writing is so good, it blows — maybe this guy's an alien.
However, he does warn that the audiobook can be confusing at times, particularly with the foreshadowing snippets at the beginning of chapters, which can leave listeners perplexed. Kevin likens these snippets to the perfect Quentin Tarantino little slide that they often see in films.
Tim then recommends another book, The Bear by Andrew Krivak, describing it as a beautiful story of a girl and her father who live close to the land. He explains that the father teaches the girl about fishing and hunting, preparing her for adulthood in harmony with nature, as they are the last of humankind. He praises it as a very special book that he finished in just a handful of days.
Shifting topics, Kevin brings up a documentary called The Birth of Saké, which he recently watched for the second time. Tim admits he has never seen it, prompting Kevin to describe it as a beautiful story about traditional handmade sake production. He explains that there are only a thousand of them left, down from 4,000 a decade ago, due to the rise of machines and automation.
Kevin elaborates that making sake requires tending to it for about six months around the clock, and the documentary covers the lives of the workers at a small brewery called Yoshida Brewery. He highlights themes of tradition and the handing off of reigns from one generation to another, along with the emotional aspects of life and death depicted in the film.
He also mentions a sake he bought from True Sake in Hayes Valley, San Francisco, called Hitorimusume, which means "single daughter." He describes it as so good and notes that he has a bottle upstairs that he purchased for about $50. Kevin highly recommends watching The Birth of Saké, emphasizing its stunning visuals, including snow falling in slow motion.
As the conversation continues, Tim expresses interest in sharing a short video that was sent to him by his friend Mike, urging Kevin to watch this.
We're all a little crazy, and that's what makes us human.
Kevin Rose: Hayes Valley, yeah.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah.
Kevin Rose: So they actually —
Tim Ferriss: I bought a sake there called Hitorimusume, which means "single daughter." To this day, I've been trying to find it. So good.
Kevin Rose: They actually sell this. I found this sake; I have it upstairs. We can take a sip of it. I bought it, but it's not much — it's like $50 a bottle. It's from this little tiny family. The story is beautiful. It's all 4K, with snow falling in slow motion. I highly recommend watching that documentary, The Birth of Saké. That's my go-to.
Tim Ferriss: What else do you got? I've got a short one.
Kevin Rose: Okay, go.
Tim Ferriss: All right, so this is a video that was sent to me by my friend Mike. You've got to watch this. It's called —
Kevin Rose: Is this some of the stuff we send each other normally?
Tim Ferriss: No. No. Not that horrific mutually assured destruction known as our group chat.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. Like you can never make it out.
Tim Ferriss: No, no, no, no. It's called Hi Ren, R-E-N, by Ren, who is a musician, storyteller, and lyricist. And it's fucking incredible. You have never seen anything like it. This is a combination of talent, craziness/lunacy, philosophy, redemption, and relief. The lyrics are so good. It's a one-man performance where he's playing a guitar. He looks like a mental patient; he's in an inpatient outfit and gets wheeled in. It's just him and a guitar, and he goes back and forth playing the light and dark sides of himself having a conversation.
Kevin Rose: Oh, shit.
Tim Ferriss: It is so good.
Kevin Rose: Can we watch it now or no?
Tim Ferriss: It's probably too long to watch now.
Kevin Rose: All right, I'll watch it.
Tim Ferriss: You should watch it. It will blow your mind.
Kevin Rose: All right, we'll link it up. This is some good stuff. I love when we throw out the random links that are just really good.
Tim Ferriss: This one, seriously, I was like, "Oh, I'm not the only one who's fucking crazy." Oh, that's great.
Kevin Rose: Fantastic.
Tim Ferriss: I love that.
Kevin Rose: We're all fucking crazy.
Tim Ferriss: We're all fucking crazy.
Kevin Rose: God, what a relief.
Tim Ferriss: So that's definitely one that came to mind.
Kevin Rose: All right, I've got my last story of the day, and then maybe you have one to add on top of this. So I'm taking a lot of risk here in that —
Tim Ferriss: Tantalizing.
Kevin Rose: — speaking about podcasts that we don't want to do what everybody else is doing. One of the things that was a complete tragedy that we can all agree upon is that Matthew Perry's passing away from a ketamine overdose or becoming unconscious and then drowning in the pool. A lot of data came out recently. Did you see that story?
Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I did.
Kevin Rose: It was really horrible. These doctors were conspiring to give him as much as he wanted and injecting him with what would be considered to be —
Tim Ferriss: Like a general anesthesia dose.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, exactly. Enough to put you out. And obviously, you don't want to fall asleep in the hot tub.
Tim Ferriss: Doesn't mix with water. Right. It doesn't mix with water.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. So the thing that bummed me out about that is that we talked about this before regarding my treatment like six months ago, and I feel fantastic after that treatment. But the thing that bummed me out is that —
Tim Ferriss: Meaning intravenous. Was it intravenous or muscular?
Kevin Rose: I did intravenous, yeah.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. So IV ketamine treatment.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. So I did it. I did the six sessions, and I was going through a really hard startup. I feel as good as ever, which is great. Since then, when we did that podcast, I've had — and I can't say on camera — but I've had a household name that has built a business that is bigger than you and I have ever built, that would be a shock to the world, reach out to me. They said, "I did this, and it changed my life." They have since paid for a bunch of people to do it after them who were really suffering. That person in particular was having some depression, things of that nature, that was treatment-resistant depression, as they call it.
A colleague of mine hit me up and was like, "I have suicidal thoughts. I'm not going to kill myself, but I hate that I have them every day."
Tim Ferriss: Also a scary message to get.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. But she went and did five treatments and is now in full remission. I was like, this is amazing. It kills me that — I mean, obviously, there are insane dangers around recreational use. I'm not disputing that at all. It's being used in clubs; it's being used all over the place as a disassociative. I get that it's really bad. But I wanted to go out and say, if I'm going to do a different podcast on this, I want to have an expert, which I brought my doctor in. Her name is Dr. Jen. She's a Princeton-trained doctor.
Tim Ferriss: Not a chiropractor.
Kevin Rose: Not a chiropractor.
Tim Ferriss: No offense to chiropractors, but they tend to do the Dr. Bob, Dr. Jack, Dr. Jen thing.
Kevin Rose: Yeah. You don't want a chiropractor doing this, but she's been...
Sometimes, the darkest thoughts can lead us to explore unexpected paths to healing.
Suicidal thoughts can be incredibly distressing. One individual expressed, "I'm not going to kill myself, but I hate that I have them every day." This is indeed a scary message to receive, as noted by Tim Ferriss. However, Kevin Rose shared a hopeful story about a friend who underwent five treatments and is now in full remission. He remarked, "This is amazing," while acknowledging the insane dangers surrounding recreational use of certain substances. He emphasized that he is not disputing the risks, as these substances are often misused in clubs and other venues as dis-associatives.
In light of this, Kevin decided to approach the topic more seriously. He wanted to feature an expert on his podcast, so he invited Dr. Jen, a Princeton-trained doctor with 15 years of experience as an ER doctor. Kevin clarified, "Not a chiropractor," as he humorously noted the tendency for some to use the title "Dr." without the same level of medical training. Tim Ferriss acknowledged that while there are great chiropractors, they are not the right fit for administering treatments like ketamine.
During their podcast, they took a scientific point of view, discussing neuroplasticity and the positive outcomes Dr. Jen has witnessed. Kevin added a personal touch by stating, "I will go in to demystify this," and shared his experience of receiving an intramuscular shot, which he described as "just a shot in the arm." He aimed to remain conscious during the experience to articulate his feelings as he began to drift into La La Land.
Tim Ferriss inquired if Kevin would share any "marble mouth moments," to which Kevin responded affirmatively. He explained that he struggled to complete sentences due to the anesthetic effects, but he was motivated by a friend suffering from severe depression who had seen positive benefits from the treatment. Kevin emphasized, "I am not recommending anyone to do this," but he wanted to highlight that there are individuals out there who are seriously contemplating horrible things.
He urged listeners to seek out high-quality clinics rather than unqualified practitioners, stating, "Don't go to the chiropractor." He insisted that a legitimate clinic should include proper medical protocols, such as blood pressure cuffs and heart rate monitors. Kevin expressed his intention to demystify the process, acknowledging that it may be controversial but believing it could help many people. He noted, "It's not for everyone," but for those who have exhausted all other options, it might be worth considering.
Tim Ferriss added that there are many resources available for those experiencing suicidal ideation, reminding listeners that they are not doctors. He shared his own experience, stating, "I almost off’d myself in college," and encouraged anyone contemplating self-harm to explore the potential benefits of ketamine sessions. He described these sessions as offering a moment of respite from incessant thought loops, allowing individuals to examine their pain more closely.
However, Tim cautioned against using ketamine outside of a clinical setting, stating, "It is too seductive." He warned that it could lead to addiction, especially for those with a history of using substances like alcohol to cope. Kevin echoed this sentiment, sharing an interesting conversation he had with Dr. Jen. He expressed his disbelief that anyone could become addicted to ketamine, describing it as a journey that leaves him relieved after each session. Yet, Dr. Jen countered, explaining that some individuals do indeed develop an addiction, highlighting the complexity and potential risks associated with the treatment.
Ketamine can be a powerful tool for self-discovery, but its seductive nature poses a real risk of addiction for those with a history of substance use.
Tim Ferriss: It is too seductive. It is very easy to become addicted if you have any history of using alcohol to take the edge off. Ketamine is like alcohol times 100 in terms of its effectiveness of taking that edge off. And therein lies the danger because there are severe consequences to becoming really addicted to ketamine.
Kevin Rose: I will say this, that was really interesting. I talked to Dr. Jen, who's done hundreds of patients now. I said to her on the podcast, and in her defense, this was very interesting. I said, "For me, I don't see how anyone could be addicted to this because it's like a journey you go on." By the time I'm done with the journey, I'm like, "Oh my God, thank God I get a few days off" because you do it twice a week for three weeks. But she goes, "No, no, no. Kevin, I just want to let you know there are some people that when they feel that, they feel high from that." And I'm not one of those people, thank God, but she's like, "Therein lies the danger." And I’m like, "Thank you for correcting me there." That's a real legitimate person trying to set the record straight because some people can get that alcohol times 1,000 and get addicted, and then they go finding street sources and all that stuff. So it's a really crazy compound because in some settings it can be a savior and a reboot that people need, providing an outside perspective to look at themselves, disassociated a bit to laugh and to take the edge off.
Tim Ferriss: To take an observer status on their own stories.
Kevin Rose: Observer status, exactly. I talk about that. Actually, when they filmed me coming out of it, they asked, "What did you feel?" And I go, "Kevin was over here. I took an observer status of that. And I was able to say he's being crazy and he's his own worst enemy." So it's very challenging because, in some sense, this is a very dangerous compound. But I don't think we need to just throw it away.
Tim Ferriss: No, we don't need to demonize it. I think it's a very powerful tool. And the risk is self-administration.
Kevin Rose: Yes.
Tim Ferriss: 100 percent. I will say I've seen some of the most impressive, amazing, soulful, high-functioning people completely derail their lives using ketamine and other compounds. You just have to be very, very cautious. Because my belief is, and I think this is a, even if it's inaccurate, I think it's a constructive positive belief to hold, which is everyone has a molecule that will make them addictive.
Kevin Rose: Yes.
Tim Ferriss: You just don't know exactly which key is going to fit the lock, but everyone has the potential to be addicted.
Kevin Rose: Did I take—
Tim Ferriss: And it's just the right molecule. So for me, I'm like, let's safeguard against that. Oh, my God.
Addison: [inaudible].
Kevin Rose: What is this?
Addison: This is just a single shot of that.
Tim Ferriss: Oh, the great whiskey or the great tequila. Thank you.
Kevin Rose: All right. Thank you. Thanks so much.
Tim Ferriss: I love that text was from like 20 minutes ago. He said thank you. Addison, you're the best, man.
Addison: Sure.
Kevin Rose: Thanks, man.
Tim Ferriss: PicStudio.AI for Tim in Speedos.
Addison: Wait. Did you already pull it up?
Tim Ferriss: I pulled it up.
Kevin Rose: It was so good. Amazing. Crazy.
Tim Ferriss: I mean, it looks just like him.
Kevin Rose: It does look just like him.
Addison: Here's—
Tim Ferriss: What's the story of the snake through the skull on your forearm?
Addison: It's traditional. There's no stories, man. It's a piece of great art.
Kevin Rose: There's no stories. Just beautiful.
Tim Ferriss: All right. You know what? I stand corrected. I like it.
Addison: Hold on, hold on. What about this one? There's no story with the—
Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah, like the monkey in the hat with the cigar?
Kevin Rose: He was [inaudible]—
Tim Ferriss: That looks pretty traditional too.
Addison: How about this little baby?
Tim Ferriss: Oh, look at like the CCP baby with the boxing gloves? Yeah. Who knows?
Kevin Rose: Addison's the best. Thank you so much.
Addison: Did you guys talk about just what happened last week or two weeks ago with Flux and the model?
Kevin Rose: Oh, yeah. So we did mention that up front, but I think we should mention it. Well, I didn't mention Flux. So there was a new model that came out.
Tim Ferriss: All right. Addison, you get to do the cheers. What should we cheers to?
Addison: To our girlfriends and our wives, may they never meet.
Kevin Rose: "To our girlfriends and our wives, may they never meet," is what Addison says.
Tim Ferriss: Future tense for me, but a boy can dream.
Kevin Rose: So just to give the round out of the 30 seconds. Addison, you switched to a new model called Flux.
Addison: Yeah, everyone knows about it. That's deep in the AI space.
Kevin Rose: Yeah, this is the new AI shit.
Addison: What's really crazy is, so you guys brought up—
Tim Ferriss: Should we get him a mic?
Kevin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Here, talk in this.
AI is revolutionizing photography, making it effortless to create stunning portraits without the hassle of traditional shoots.
Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose began the conversation by addressing a new model called Flux that Addison had switched to. Tim prompted Addison to lead a toast, to which Addison humorously suggested, "To our girlfriends and our wives, may they never meet." Kevin echoed this sentiment, while Tim added, "Future tense for me, but a boy can dream."
Kevin then provided a brief overview, stating, "Addison, you switched to a new model called Flux." Addison explained that Flux is well-known in the AI space and is part of the latest advancements in artificial intelligence. He elaborated, "What's really crazy is, so you guys brought up —" prompting Tim to suggest getting Addison a microphone for better clarity. Kevin encouraged Addison to kneel down and share more about Flux, particularly why the pictures of Tim had improved significantly over the past three months.
Addison began by recalling a previous discussion about Prompt Hunt, which had occurred around December 2020. He noted, "You guys brought it up and you were making all these theories about what's going to happen with AI." He continued, "The models just keep getting better and the prompts are kind of still staying complicated." He explained that a team from Stable Diffusion or Stability AI had left to start another open-source model that now competes with Midjourney. Addison shared that shortly after its launch, there were doubts about fine-tuning capabilities, but he quickly discovered, "Actually, you can."
Kevin remarked on the rapid changes in AI, stating, "And that's how rapidly this changes." Addison agreed, emphasizing that it now takes very little effort to train these models. Tim expressed excitement about showcasing the results, saying, "We'll put a bunch of these up. They're nuts." Kevin humorously added that after sharing these images, people might approach Tim and comment, "What happened? You really let yourself go."
The conversation shifted back to Addison, who was encouraged to share more about his work with PicStudio.AI. He noted that everyone desires high-quality photos, especially for professional purposes like LinkedIn or promotional events. Addison lamented the challenges of dating in the current environment, stating, "I'd hate to be dating right now. That'd be really bad."
Tim prompted Addison to visit the website for PicStudio.AI, asking about the tagline, which Addison confirmed was, "Pro portraits created with AI." He explained that they were in the pilot phase, showcasing various portraits. Tim expressed his admiration, saying, "God, that's fabulous," while Addison clarified that the goal was not just to create whimsical images but to streamline the process of obtaining professional portraits. He reminisced about taking portraits with his friend Nate Taylor, who had also taken Tim's portraits, and the time-consuming nature of the traditional photo-taking process.
Focus your energy on hunting antelope, not field mice. Big goals feed your passion and purpose.
In a recent conversation, Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose discussed the evolving landscape of photography, particularly the use of AI in creating pro portraits. Tim prompted Kevin to check out a website featuring AI-generated portraits, which led to a discussion about their tagline: "Pro portraits created with AI." Addison, who was also part of the conversation, mentioned that they were piloting various portrait styles, showcasing some older versions of their work. Tim expressed his admiration, stating, "God, that's fabulous." Addison elaborated on the practicality of AI-generated portraits, contrasting it with traditional photography sessions that often require extensive time and effort. He recalled his past experiences taking portraits with his friend Nate Taylor, noting that they would spend days capturing a thousand photos, only to find one that looked good. Addison emphasized that AI technology allows for a "realistic way of getting a great portrait" quickly and efficiently.
Kevin Rose chimed in, expressing his appreciation for Addison's entrepreneurial spirit, describing him as "the best" and commending his ability to dabble in various projects. Tim added that dabbling can often lead to discovering ventures worth pursuing further, stating, "Dabbling is where you find things to double down on." As the conversation progressed, Tim mentioned a children's book for adults titled "The Well of Being" by Jean-Pierre Weill. He described it as a beautiful and easy-to-read book that can be enjoyed with children, crediting a thoughtful couple for introducing him to it. Tim shared the book's description, which highlights its focus on "the art of happiness and what it means to be radically alive in our daily moments." Kevin noted that the book was out of print, prompting Tim to suggest buying a used copy.
Tim then shifted the discussion to a metaphor he had been contemplating: "Are you hunting antelope or field mice?" He explained that this question relates to how one allocates their energy and time, particularly in the context of choosing projects. Tim elaborated that while a lion can survive on field mice, it would ultimately be "very, very, very, very, very over busy," expending more energy than it gains. Kevin challenged this notion, suggesting that hunting field mice might allow for more time to reflect and understand oneself, leading to a deeper conversation about the balance between pursuing ambitious goals and taking time for personal introspection.
Don't just stay busy hunting field mice; aim for the antelope that will sustain you long-term.
A lion can survive on field mice, but it's going to ultimately be very, very, very, very, very over busy. It will burn more calories than it earns through hunting field mice. Kevin Rose points out, "So it'd be skinny." Tim Ferriss responds, "Don't be skinny, but pick a big —" to which Kevin interjects, "No, it would be skinny if it was just doing field mice." Tim continues, "Yeah. But pick a big, audacious goal that can feed you for a long time." He then poses a thought-provoking question: "So as you're being 'busy,' are you hunting field mice or antelope?"
Kevin Rose challenges this notion, saying, "So if you're hunting field mice, I'm assuming that's easier prey, easier to get, probably gives you more time to sit with who you are." Tim humorously adds, "Watch Netflix." Kevin then reflects on the day's discussion, stating, "The one thing that struck me about today, and let's have a little real talk for a second at the end." Tim responds, "Oh, wow. Oh, God. Coming to Jesus moment. Here we go."
Kevin continues, "No, but you went on this sabbatical and yet you had to write a book. It's funny —" to which Tim interrupts, "I didn't have to write a book." Kevin clarifies, "Well hold on, hold on. Our mutual friend —" and Tim reacts with, "Oh, boy." Kevin goes on, "— who shall not be named, pointed this out as well. Where it's like, can you sit and just be you? Or would that be too hard?" Tim agrees, "Okay, let's do it. All right. So yeah, this is good. Let's get into the fucking chewy bits."
Tim shares, "So I routinely, every year, spend at least a month off the grid. Last October I was gone." Kevin remarks, "Yeah, but you were doing shit." Tim acknowledges, "I was doing stuff, but here's my question, right? And this was in our shared text thread. I basically said, 'Okay, look.' So the accusation is that Tim doesn't know how to chill out. I'm like, 'Okay, fine.' Let's take that as true. If Tim were to chill out, what does that look like on a daily and weekly basis?"
He continues, "One of my challenges was humans are built to be social. You have a family. Our mutual friend has a family. There's an inbuilt social network in that family. I don't have that." Kevin responds, "I mean, you're a brother to me, so you always have a family." Tim appreciates this, saying, "Yeah, I appreciate that. And on a day-to-day basis, when I wake up in the morning, my hotel room, my house is empty. So I need to go externally. I need to travel outside of the confines of my house to find that human interaction."
Kevin agrees, "Sure." Tim then asks, "So the question is, okay, well if you could write the script, what would Tim Ferriss chilling out look like?" Kevin confidently states, "I know what that would look like." Tim prompts, "What would it look like?" Kevin replies, "Oh, it's very simple." Tim, intrigued, responds, "All right." Kevin continues, "I've got the best answer for you ever." Tim, skeptical, says, "Oh, boy." Kevin concludes, "No script."
Tim retorts, "That sounds like some fucking fortune cookie stuff that I can't make sense of though. What does that mean?" Kevin explains, "I know you can't make sense of it, but that's the point. It's no script." Tim questions, "When have you done that?" Kevin responds, "When I did my meditation retreats. When I do, there's no script."
Tim counters, "But you had a schedule for each day." Kevin agrees, "Sure. But I think —" Tim interrupts, "That was an intensive silent treatment —" to which Kevin responds, "Okay, okay. [inaudible]." Tim adds, "Where you're meditating eight hours a day." Kevin acknowledges, "Okay, I suffer from the same thing you do. I suffer from the same thing you do."
Tim continues, "And that is, that we can't —" to which Kevin agrees, "We can't turn it off. And it's like, honestly, I think the healthiest thing though would be to wake up with no agenda for a month, with no friends for a month. With the fact that you just wake up saying, 'What is today going to bring?' And that is damn fucking hard for people that are driven like you and me are."
Tim reflects, "So I did that for almost a month last October." Kevin interjects, "But you did some psychedelics during that time and shit. Come on, you did shit." Tim clarifies, "Towards the end. But in that particular case, I mean, I'll just say that I don't think humans are built for isolation."
Kevin agrees, "Agreed. Agreed." Tim elaborates, "And there is a fetishizing of self-sufficiency and independence in the US that I think is unhealthy. It exists in other places for sure. But if you look at our evolutionary biological programming, it completely refutes that. To be exiled, to be excluded from the group, is effectively tough."
Kevin adds, "100 percent. And I'm not arguing that. But what I'm arguing is what if you couldn't touch a pen or a computer for a month?" Tim responds, "Yeah, I'd shoot arrows or a bow." Kevin acknowledges, "Yeah." Tim concludes, "I mean, I do think, and I can't remember the particular attribution of this. Man, I wish I could really remember it." Kevin jokes, "Ron Jeremy?" Tim laughs and says, "The Hedgehog. No, it was someone else. But it was basically like man finds leisure through the switching from one.
Self-sufficiency is overrated; true fulfillment comes from connection and doing what you love, not just being busy.
In a recent conversation, Tim Ferriss and Kevin Rose discussed the concept of isolation and the cultural attitudes towards self-sufficiency in the United States. Tim expressed his belief that there is a fetishizing of self-sufficiency and independence in the US, which he considers to be unhealthy. He noted that while this attitude exists in other cultures, it contradicts our evolutionary biological programming. Tim emphasized that being exiled or excluded from a group is inherently difficult for humans.
Kevin agreed with Tim's perspective but posed a thought-provoking question: What if you couldn't touch a pen or a computer for a month? Tim responded that he would likely engage in activities like shooting arrows or using a bow. He then referenced a concept about how man finds leisure through the switching from one compelling activity to another, although he couldn't recall the exact attribution. Tim expressed skepticism about the idea that being idle is a fruitful goal. He stated, If you can't sit with yourself for five minutes, that's a problem, but acknowledged that different people have different constitutions.
Tim shared his experience from The 4-Hour Workweek, where he automated his business and ended up dancing tango for six to eight hours a day. He clarified that this was not done out of obligation or fear, but rather from a place of enthusiasm and excitement. He believes that as long as he maintains the self-awareness to distinguish between activities driven by fear or guilt and those that genuinely enliven him, being active is beneficial. For instance, he is currently engaged in archery, which he finds to be meditative and fulfilling.
Kevin then expressed his admiration for Tim's ability to dissect and assimilate information quickly, noting that he has never seen anyone else do it as effectively. He inquired whether Tim could tap into a side of himself that allows him to simply be, without the need for constant analysis or pursuit. Kevin shared a personal anecdote about his wife, Darya, a PhD in neuroscience, and how their intense debates often lead him to wish for more balance in their discussions.
Tim acknowledged the importance of balance, stating that it can manifest in various forms and may be time-bound, whether on a daily or weekly basis. However, Kevin pointed out that Tim was analyzing the concept rather than simply experiencing it. Tim countered that finding the right conceptual framework is not a mistake and can be helpful. He explained that for him, a month of intense work followed by a month of complete relaxation could equate to a sense of balance, even if it appears lopsided on a day-to-day basis.
Kevin humorously suggested an idea for an app called the Tim-Tim Random app, which would provide Tim with spontaneous activities to engage in, freeing him from overthinking. Tim acknowledged the curse of the entrepreneur, which often leads to over-analysis.
As their conversation continued, they reflected on the challenges of introducing partners into their lives. Kevin noted that Darya is very structured, while he tends to be more spontaneous. Tim agreed, stating that he and Darya share similar traits, highlighting their connection.
As the discussion drew to a close, Kevin expressed his desire for more time together, wishing they could be in the same city for longer periods. Tim echoed this sentiment, and they both agreed to explore the possibility of Darya moving to Austin.
In wrapping up, Tim encouraged listeners to visit his website for links and images, while Kevin promoted his own content. They exchanged goodbyes, expressing their affection for one another and the joy of their conversation.