Rick Rubin and Mary Karr — The Tim Ferriss Show

youtube.com/watch?v=QoThEjfp4dQ

Rick Rubin and Mary Karr — The Tim Ferriss Show

This is a super combo episode featuring Rick Rubin, a nine-time Grammy-winning producer, one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, and the number one New York Times bestselling author of The Creative Act: A Way of Being. Rick shares his physical transformation journey, where he lost between 135 and 140 lbs. He always thought he was eating a healthy diet and was vegan for over 20 years. After reading a book by Stu Middleman, who mentioned Phil Maffetone, Rick found Phil online and asked if he could become his patient. Although Phil had just retired, they became fast friends, and Phil really changed Rick's life by introducing him to a high-fat diet and encouraging him to start eating meat again. It was truly life-changing for him.

🌞 Start your day with sunshine and feel the transformation! 🌿✨

I lost, at the peak moment, between 135 and 140 lbs, which was a transformative experience for me. I always thought I was eating a healthy diet and had been a strict organic vegan for over 20 years. Despite my efforts, I got up to 318 lbs. It was shocking because I believed I was doing everything right. My turning point came when I read a book by Stu Middleman, who ran a thousand miles in 11 days. I remember thinking, "Wow, I can barely walk down the block, and this guy ran a thousand miles in 11 days." His story was incredibly inspiring. In his book, Stu mentioned Phil Maffetone, who ultimately changed the way I trained and ate. I found Phil online, sent him an email, and even though he had just retired and was living in Florida, we connected. He had decided to become a songwriter, and since I’m involved in songwriting, I proposed that I could help him with his songwriting if he helped me with my health and fitness. He liked the idea, and we became friends. Phil eventually moved into my house and lived there for about two years.

Phil's first suggestion was a significant lifestyle change. He wanted me to go outside and be in the sun for 20 minutes every morning, which sounded terrifying at first. But gradually, my circadian rhythm started to kick in, and I began waking up and going to sleep earlier. I also changed my diet, incorporating some animal protein like eggs and fish, which I never liked but ate more like medicine. Despite these changes, my health improved, but I still stayed very heavy. Phil noted that anyone else who made the changes I did would have dropped all their weight, but something else was holding onto mine.

My mentor, Mo Austin, suggested another approach. He was worried about my health despite my efforts to eat right and exercise. He recommended a nutritionist who put me on a high protein, low-calorie diet. Over 14 months, I lost 130 lbs, which changed everything for me. Reflecting on my journey, I realized that concerns about what others think, competition, self-doubt, and ego were significant obstacles. Meditating, diving into art, and immersing myself in the greatest works of all time helped me stay inspired and focused on personal growth rather than external validation.

🎶 Keep improving every day, and you'll be unstoppable! 🌟💪

Reflecting on my journey, I realized that concerns about what others think, competition, self-doubt, and ego were significant obstacles. Meditating, diving into art, and immersing myself in the greatest works of all time helped me stay inspired and focused on personal growth rather than external validation. It's a more realistic place to be if you say, "I don't want to write songs unless I could write songs better than the Beatles." It's a hard road, but if you say, "I want to write a better song tomorrow than the song I wrote yesterday," that's something that can be done. And if you write a better song than you wrote yesterday every day, then you continue to get better and better. It really is small steps, and try not to think too much because so much of it is more emotion and heart work than it is head work. The head comes in after to look at what the heart has presented and to organize it, but the initial inspiration comes from a different place, and it's not the head—it's more inspiration.

So, the key first is to really do whatever activities you can to tune into inspiration. Things like meditating help and diving into art in general—going to museums, looking at beautiful art, reading great novels, seeing a great movie, reading poetry—submerging yourself in great art. The more you can do to get out of the mode of competition, the only way to use the inspiration of other artists is if you submerge yourself in the greatest works of all time. If you listen to the greatest music ever made, that would be a better way to find your own voice to matter today than listening to what's on the radio now. For those who feel they lack music literacy, I would just start by listening to the greats. Search online for Mojo's top 100 albums of all time or Rolling Stone's top 100 albums. Start listening to what are considered the greats.

Reflecting on my work with Slayer, I was a fan of music and I loved heavy metal and I loved hip-hop. Slayer were an underground metal band. When we signed them, there was this terrible fear that Slayer, now doing their first album for a major label, were going to sell out, get watered down. The album that we made, 'Reign in Blood,' was much harder and worse than anything that anyone ever heard before. I didn't want to water down the idea of watering things down for a mainstream audience. The best art divides the audience. If you put out a record and half the people who hear it absolutely love it and half the people who hear it absolutely hate it, you've done well.

When asked about books I often gift, I recommend "The Daodejing," the Stephen Mitchell translation. If you were to read the book today, you would get one thing from it, and if you pick it up in two years and read it again, it would mean something entirely different and always on the money. Another book I recommend is "Wherever You Go, There You Are" by Jon Kabat-Zinn. It's a great book if you've never meditated and if you've been meditating for 50 years. On helping artists overcome creative blocks, I'll give them like homework, like a small doable task. Tonight, I want you to write one word in this song that needs five lines that you can't finish. I just want one word that you like by tomorrow.

Reflecting on my experience with a slackline, I know that anything I set my mind to learn to do, if I focus and just continue to not mind falling off, that's how you learn things. Having solved my weight problem really makes me believe that anything's possible. We can learn, we can train ourselves to do absolutely anything. If I could give advice to my 20-year-old self, I would say, "Try to have more fun." I think I was more driven, almost like I felt like I had something to prove.

Anything's possible if you focus and don't fear failure. 💫🙌

He was by far the first one who was able to do it and it wasn't because he just naturally was gifted at it. He knows that anything he sets his mind to learn to do if he focuses and just continues to not mind falling off and not thinking he's supposed to be out of the box learning to be able to do it. That's how you learn things. I also will say that after having the weight problem that I had for so long and then finally finding the solution and making the change, it really makes me believe that anything's possible. We can learn, we can train ourselves to do absolutely anything. It's really just getting the right information.

When asked about advice for my 20-year-old self, I would say, "Try to have more fun." Reflecting on why I didn't, I think I was more driven. I felt like I had something to prove. Doing the work was the most important thing in the world as opposed to doing the work and enjoying the process. For my 30-year-old self, I would say, "Be kinder to myself as I beat myself up a lot because I expect a lot from myself. I'll be hard on myself. I don't know that I'm doing anyone any good by doing that."

On perfectionism, I think that's a myth. Your take on things is specific to you. It's almost like you've won the war. You have broken through to now you have an audience. You can do that without killing yourself and that killing yourself won't be of service either to you or to your audience. A story about Neil Gaiman: Stephen King pulled him aside and just said, "Enjoy it."

Transitioning to a story about my mother, my sister says, "Mom, isn't that where you shot at Daddy?" and she says, "No, that's where I shot at Larry. Over there is where I shot at your daddy." On why I write memoirs, why would you make stuff up when that's who your mother is? Describing my hometown in Texas, I call it leechfield but it's really east of Port Arthur, Texas, a small town in East Texas I call it the ringworm belt.

On writing memoirs, I've said it's hard. Here's how hard: everybody I know who wades deep enough into memories' waters drowns a little. On my financial situation when I began publishing, publishing for me was great because they gave me money and I didn't have any. Describing my parents and household, my mother was capital and nervous and married seven times and twice to my daddy. Both my parents drank hard. It was Texas; everybody was armed and we were a loud, combative house.

Poetry saved my life. 📚💖

Reflecting on my childhood, I realize I was a weird little kid in a loud, combative household. My mother, capital and nervous, married seven times—twice to my father—and both my parents drank hard. It was Texas; everybody was armed. Despite the chaos, I loved my parents. Born in the richest country in the world, I recognize the privileges my skin color affords me, along with other advantages like growing up skinny with relatively straight teeth and eventually becoming a college professor.

My journey wasn't smooth; I tried to kill myself when I was still in grade school by taking a bunch of aspirin, thinking it would relieve my pain. Therapy became a crucial part of my life early on, thanks to a kind professor and his wife who took me under their wing and urged me to seek help when I was 19. Reading became my socially sanctioned form of dissociation, a way to escape into the worlds of Winnie the Pooh or Charlotte's Web. Poetry, in particular, saved my life; my best friends were poets.

My mother, a painter who attended Art School in New York, filled our house with books and was enormously well-read. I remember trying to share my love for poems, like an E.E. Cummings piece, with other kids in my neighborhood, but they didn't understand, so I learned to keep my enthusiasm to myself. When I was getting sober, my mother once told me she couldn't watch my toddler for even an hour and a half because she just didn't do kids. These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today.

Art should shake things up and heal the broken. 🎨✨

Despite my early fascination with poetry and art, I quickly learned to keep my enthusiasm to myself. By third or fourth grade, it was painfully clear that while my mother and sister shared my love for poems like those by E.E. Cummings, no one else did. It felt like everyone was messing with me because it seemed so obvious how great this was, but I learned to shut up about it. Reflecting on the role of poetry and art, I believe that all art should disturb the comfortable and comfort those who are disturbed.

My journey was fraught with significant challenges. I won an essay contest in high school from the National Council of Teachers of English, but that victory was tainted by a dark episode. My mother, who had returned to graduate school, got me a recommendation from a teacher of Chinese history who sexually assaulted me in his office. Perhaps his recommendation helped me win the contest, but it left a lasting scar.

Activism also played a crucial role in my life, especially during my college admission process. I opposed the Vietnam War and wore black armbands on moratorium day, which led to a frightening encounter with my football coach. He pinned me against the lockers, threatening me to remove my armband. Little did he know, his call to McAllister's admissions office, where he labeled me a bad citizen, actually worked in my favor. They saw a young girl standing up for her beliefs and thought I was perfect for their institution.

Once in college, I made straight A's and even earned a scholarship, which was shocking to me. Before that, I had been living with drug dealers in Southern California, initially in cars and then slinging dope, mostly pot and psychedelics. A terrifying hitchhiking incident, where I had to jump out of a car to escape a potential rapist, was a turning point. I decided to go to college in Minnesota, thinking everyone there was so damn nice.

Academic success came, but it was followed by a struggle. I did extremely well for two years, winning numerous prizes, but then I dropped out. I couldn't handle the prosperity and success; it took me a while to start getting sober. These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today.

Writing through your own lens reveals deeper truths. 🖋️🔍

I stuck my arm out the side of the window, opened it from the outside, and jumped out, rolling down an embankment on the side of the road. I was really scared, like I had been when I was a little kid and there were bullets flying around my house. Reflecting on my time in Minnesota, I noted how everybody there is so damn nice. I did extremely well for two years, winning all these prizes, but then I dropped out because I couldn't handle the prosperity and success.

When I started teaching at Syracuse, I focused solely on the writing. We base our admissions on the work itself, and we've gotten up to 1,200 applications for just 12 positions. I used to stage a fight in my class with someone who was opposite from me. The purpose of the exercise was for students to realize that they remember through a filter of Who They Are. It's crucial as a writer to understand the filters you wear that prevent you from seeing what's truly going on.

I also emphasize the importance of keeping a commonplace book, a notebook where you jot down beautiful pieces of language and capture those beautiful turns of phrase you encounter. For instance, I once saw a guy standing on my street, screaming murder or suicide at the top of his lungs. I went up to him and said, "Sir, isn't there a third alternative? Isn't there a door number three?" These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today.

Capture life's beauty and wisdom in your own words. 📚✨

I also emphasize the importance of keeping a commonplace book, a notebook where you jot down beautiful pieces of language and capture those beautiful turns of phrase you encounter. It's a place where you might copy poems or something you overhear on the street. For instance, I once saw a guy standing on my street, screaming murder or suicide at the top of his lungs. I went up to him and said, "Sir, isn't there a third alternative? Isn't there a door number three?" He was looking at the sky, contemplating, and I thought there might just be a door number three. This practice of writing down beautiful language is something I've done since 1978. You're constantly guzzling beauty, steeping yourself in it like a cake in good brandy. I even keep quotes from my lectures on index cards—40 years' worth of them.

Transitioning to my personal journey with sobriety, I was an atheist my whole life and got sober in 1989. A high school friend once said to me, "You don't even drink anymore, you don't even smoke pot... I just think you're a quitter." I responded, "You've had this job since the 11th grade and you're 50 years old. You have an ambition deficit disorder by my yardstick." Initially, I resisted prayer because I didn't believe in God and had no religious training. I tried to stop drinking on my own for two or three years but somehow crossed a line where I just couldn't stop.

I hated everyone I saw who was sober; they just didn't look fun. Then Janice, a recovering heroin addict, advised me, "Just get on your knees. You don't do it for God; you do it for yourself. Just say, 'Help me stay sober' in the morning and 'Thank you for helping me stay sober' at night." Some weird things started to happen. What's terrifying about praying is the loneliness of it, but I began to feel a broad expanse of quiet in the middle of my chest.

I remember a particularly difficult day when our little shitty car broke down. My kid was a toddler and had to pee, we were on the road, and I had a flat tire without a working spare. It was rush hour, and yet, I didn't break down. These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today.

Gratitude turns what we have into enough. 🙏✨

I hated everyone I saw who was sober; they just didn't look fun. Then Janice, a recovering heroin addict, advised me, "Just get on your knees. You don't do it for God; you do it for yourself. Just say, 'Help me stay sober' in the morning and 'Thank you for helping me stay sober' at night." Sometimes, I would literally shoot the finger at the light fixture because I just thought I hate this. The loneliness of it was terrifying, but Janice said, "You show more faith praying when you have never prayed before than any nun." I began to feel a broad expanse of quiet in the middle of my chest.

I have a big inner life, and mine never has anything good to say; it thinks it can kill me and go on living without me. I began to get a space in my body, and I began to hear—not the voice of God, I would call it, but I would have some leanings. I remember a particularly difficult day when our little shitty car broke down. My kid was a toddler and had to pee, we were on the road, and I had a flat tire without a working spare. It was rush hour, and yet, I didn't break down. I just sat there, and he said he was hungry, and I didn't have anything to eat in the car. I said, "Let's just look at the sunset a minute and then we'll walk and get some help." This truck pulls up with these Goomba guys from a 12-step meeting, and they have ginger ale, they have a jack, they have a way to tow my car, they give Deb potato chips.

These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today. I learned the importance of making a gratitude list and praying for what you want. I pray to stand it—not to kill myself, not to stand it, but just to get through the day. Once, I got a phone call from a guy who said he was from this Foundation, giving me $35,000 that I'd never applied for or asked for; somebody just put me up for it. When people express skepticism about God, I tell them, "God didn't do the Holocaust; people did the Holocaust. What are you mad at God for? People did that; God didn't do that. It has nothing to do with God."

I practice a kind of spirituality called Ignatian spirituality. The purpose of the exercises is to find God in all things. In the morning, I do a prayer and meditation thing for 20 minutes where I do centering prayer for maybe five or six minutes, then I read a scripture and meditate on it. At night, I do something called the examen of conscience. These practices have become integral to my journey, helping me navigate the complexities of life with a sense of peace and resilience.

Review your day like a movie, savor the good moments, and aim to be better tomorrow. 🎬✨

In the morning, I do a prayer and meditation thing for about 20 minutes. I start with centering prayer for maybe five or six minutes, then I read a scripture and meditate on it. I also have a bunch of people I pray for. At night, I engage in something called the examen of conscience. This involves pressing play on the recorder of my day, closing my eyes, and reviewing my day as if I were watching a movie. I look for moments of grace or luck, or even something as simple as a good sandwich, and I savor those moments, occupying them fully. It's a very body-oriented exercise. I also see moments where I turned away from God or my best self didn't act, and I acknowledge that I want to do better next time. I pray for patience and improvement, and I keep a daily prayer journal to highlight these reflections.

On the subject of firearms, I own a 7 mm wind mags hunting rifle, a Glock 34 which is a 9mm, an M&P 45, and a few other firearms that I don't use much. I had a very negative association with guns due to irresponsible hunting I witnessed on Long Island. However, while working on the 4-Hour Chef and learning to forage, I felt it was necessary to hunt if I were to consume animal protein. So, while I'm anti-gun, I am pro-hunting, if that makes sense.

Reflecting on my roots, growing up in Texas is a storytelling culture. The Texas idiom is poetry as far as I'm concerned. These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today.

Growing up in Texas gave me a love for wild stories and colorful language. Life's a tall tale, make yours unforgettable! 🤠📖

Growing up in Texas deeply influenced my storytelling. Texas is a storytelling culture, and the Texas idiom is poetry as far as I'm concerned. I had two great practitioners in my life: my daddy, who was a great barroom storyteller, and my mother, who was an enormous reader. My daddy was just funny as a crutch and told amazing tall tales like something out of Mark Twain. He had this colorful way of describing things—like saying a woman with an ample behind had a "butt like two bulldogs fighting in a bag," or calling me a "gimlet ass," and when it rained heavily, he'd say it was "raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock." My mother, on the other hand, read everything from Chinese history to Russian novels and philosophy. I remember when she was dying, the nurse told her that her husband was there to see her, and she quipped, "Well, he must look like he's been dead 20 years."

One typical Texas story that captures this unique idiom involves my friend Doney, who once got in a bar fight. He ran out to his truck to get a knife, and a mall cop with a belt buckle big enough to pick up HBO stood in front of his truck. Doney, trying to avoid jail, apologized profusely, saying, "Man, I'm so sorry, I didn't know it was you."

When I had to throw out 1200 pages of writing, I was devastated. I went to bed for two days, watched Dr. Phil reruns, and a lot of cooking shows. At one point, I even ate a whole pizza and slopped around in my bathrobe. During this struggle, a fellow writer told me, "I think I'm writing a bad book," to which he responded, "Well, who doesn't?" My revision process is grueling, often feeling like clawing through a line or a sentence at a time. For example, in "The Art of Memoir," I describe how my mother drove me to college in her yellow station wagon, and we stopped every night at the Holiday Inn and got drunk on screwdrivers.

These experiences, both challenging and enriching, have shaped who I am today.

Every writer's got a bad book in them, but it's part of the journey to greatness! 📚✨

I ordered a lot of curry during that time, and I think I had a whole pizza at one point while slopping around in my bathrobe. Then I called my friend Dilo and said, "Don, I think I'm writing a bad book," and he responded, "Well, who doesn't?" I thought, God, he's right. Every writer I know has written a bad book. Maybe it's just going to be a bad book, but it's the book that's standing in line to be written. I think I became willing to fail just to say what happened.

Reflecting on a specific memory, I remember Mother driving me to college in her yellow station wagon. We stopped every night at the Holiday Inn and got drunk on screwdrivers. The thing about my mother's yellow station wagon was that it didn’t have an air conditioner, so the water would spill out onto my bare feet, and it was icy, icy cold. We had stopped and gotten a bushel of peaches in Arkansas, and she was drinking vodka. Watching her eat a peach—when you're 17 years old and you see your mother show any desire for anything—is just so horrifying. I remembered reading "A Hundred Years of Solitude" and thinking I could be a writer.

When recalling her legal troubles, the judge was a guy who had known my mother when she was a reporter for the local newspaper. She had leopard skin pajamas, and it was July 4th, and she had on a beaver coat with a mink collar. The judge said, "I remember your mother, she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen," and she quipped, "Oh, you old fool."

Discussing my teaching methods, I have my students focus on a room they grew up in and try to occupy the smell. Smell is the most primordial and emotional memory; it’s stored way back in that snake brain hypothalamus we have, which is where all the trouble starts.

On the challenges of writing about trauma, because you're alone, for me, that's where the prayer and God come in. By the time I started writing "Liars' Club," I was about 35. I'd been in therapy for 16 years and had also had a prayer practice for some years. I tell people when they say they want to write a memoir about some horrible stretch of childhood or some awful period of trauma, maybe they don't, maybe they don't right now.

For self-care, I'm a big fan of a hot bath, nutritious food, and cardio even now. I'm 65 years old, and I've never been so happy in my life. I've never been less good-looking, had less social power, or had any of the things that you would think would make me happy, joyous, and free.

Take care of yourself first, then write your story. Self-love fuels creativity! 💖📝

When they tell me they want to write a memoir about some horrible stretch of childhood or some awful period of trauma, I often advise them to reconsider. I tell a lot of my young students who want to write about sexual assault or various kinds of trauma, "Well, maybe why don't you get some treatment for this first? Why don't you treat your heart first, treat your body, treat yourself with a lot of care, and see if this is what you want to write about right now... something you can write about maybe five years from now." Reflecting on my own journey and self-care, I'm a big fan of a hot bath, nutritious food, and cardio even now. I'm 65, and I get up in the morning and walk four miles, then do Pilates three or four times a week, and take a dance class a couple of times a week. All those things keep me in my body. When I'm in a lot of pain, I take care of myself.

I didn't have to be convinced to go to therapy; there weren't a lot of people saying, "Gee, I wish you'd stop drinking." My first therapist, when I look back on things he said and did, was insane. He told me to go down after he'd been seeing me for nine months and confront my homicidal suicidal mother about all the horrible stuff she'd done to me. He said, "I won't see you until you do it." As a grandmother now, handling difficult situations is different. When I was 40 or 35, it would have felt like being beaten with a hose. But now, I just think, "You know what? Daddy was in the Battle of the Bulge. This is not that hard." I have the physical energy even at my age that I didn't know I had to do it.

For me, the solution to fear is curiosity and presence. I can't be terrified and curious at the same time. I have a trick knee—most of the time I walk fine, run fine, squat more than my body weight, and do Advanced Pilates for an hour and ten minutes. I'm tough as a boot, but there are days I don't feel that way or moments when my knee goes out and I fall on the ground. All I have to do is honor those moments. I have a heating pad, a weighted blanket, and my kids have a pitbull I'll bring to stay with me—my little comfort animal. I call people, I still have a sponsor, and I still have a therapist I don't talk to all the time.

Even the hardest days lead to something extraordinary. Keep going! 🌈✨

I thought maybe I can't do this, but all I had to do was do it. If I get tired, I'll sit down; it'll rain on me a minute, then I'll get up and go again. All I have to do is honor those moments. I have a heating pad, a weighted blanket, and my kids have a pitbull—my little comfort animal. If you can just get by that, it's going to tell you that it's endless, but it's not endless; there's a bottom to it. You'll have a craving for a cigarette, and the craving is as intense as it was the first day you quit, but if you just keep note of how long the craving lasts and how many of them there are, they're as intense but they're not as long and as frequent. I promise you, it will get easier. It's not linear, and there will be those days when it's as painful as the first day, and you'll think, "But I'm no better than I was," but you are; it just doesn't feel that way.

Reflecting on missed opportunities, at the time that I was not given the green light to get an offer from Trilogy software, it seemed like a death blow because I put a lot of eggs in that basket. Almost every time I was super afraid, it was of the wrong thing, and stuff that first looked like the worst, most humiliating thing that could ever happen almost always led me to something extraordinary and very fine. On dealing with my son's illness, I could not physically drink the way a real alcoholic needs to drink and take care of a kid who was sick all the time. I couldn't do all those things; it was too hard. Talking about my sister's death, although it's horrible that she's dead, there's nothing—I feel my love for her, and I can cherish and remember all the times we were there for each other.

It's about getting curious about where the light is, just being curious about where the light is—the all-powerful reframe. Finally, on the impact of being open about sexual assault, you're being open about this on this podcast has just been such a gift to all these young men. So, a horrible thing that happened to you is being used to help give a lot of people hope.

Rick Rubin and Mary Karr — The Tim Ferriss Show

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