Kevin Spacey Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life | Lex Fridman Podcast
🎬 Sometimes rejection is just a plot twist in your success story! 🌟
When I first auditioned for the role of John Doe in "Se7en," I didn't get the part. It was late November of '94 when I went to meet David Fincher, but unfortunately, I didn't make the cut and returned to New York.
Then, out of the blue, my phone rang. It was Arnold Kopelson, the producer of "Se7en." He asked if I remembered the film I had auditioned for. He went on to explain that they had hired another actor, but things didn't work out, and David Fincher had fired him. Arnold then asked if I could fly to Los Angeles on Sunday and start shooting on Tuesday.
I had this unique idea for my role. I thought it would be impactful if I didn't take billing in the film. If the audience saw the names Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Kevin Spacey, but I didn't appear for the first 25, 30, or 40 minutes, they would figure out who I was playing. However, New Line Cinema wasn't thrilled with this idea and told me they could absolutely use my picture and image.
It was Fincher who thought my idea was cool, and we reached a compromise. I would be the first credit when the movie ended. For John Doe's look, I suggested to the hairdresser to shave my head. Fincher, surprised, agreed and even shaved his head too.
During the pivotal car scene, Fincher's direction was simple: "Less, do less." He kept reminding me that my character was in control and was going to win, which should give me tremendous confidence. I just followed his lead. The elements at play from the beginning of the movie allowed me to say the words and mean them without overacting.
Fincher's approach was about authenticity and repetition. He would often say, "I don't believe a thing that is coming out of your mouth. Shall we try it again? Let's do it again, and then let's do it again." He systematically stripped away all pretense, focusing on delivering the lines with sincerity.
Jack Lemmon's story about "less is more" resonated with me. Fincher would say, "Let's do another one, this time just a little bit less." It was challenging to do less without feeling like I wasn't acting, but that was precisely the point.
Rehearsing with Brad Pitt was intense. We stayed at a little hotel near the location and rehearsed the night before shooting that sequence. It was hard not to react to the power of what he was throwing at me. It was an incredible culmination of how my character could manipulate and ultimately succeed.
Fincher's directing style is known for numerous takes, averaging 25 to 65 per scene, whereas most directors do fewer than 10. Sometimes it was about timing; he would even use a stopwatch to time how long a scene was taking, aiming to shave minutes off here and there.
In the end, the meticulous process and Fincher's relentless pursuit of authenticity allowed us to create something truly memorable.
🎬 Sometimes rejection is just a plot twist in your success story! 🌟
🎭 Less is more—strip away the pretense and just be real. 💫
David just kept saying, "Less, do less." He would remind me, "Remember, you are in control. Like you are going to win. And knowing that should allow you to have tremendous confidence." I just followed that lead. So many of the elements that had been at work from the beginning of the movie in terms of its style really allowed me to not have to do that much—just say the words and mean them.
Fincher's direction focused on authenticity and repetition. He would often say, "I don't believe a thing that is coming out of your mouth. Shall we try it again? Let's do it again, and then let's do it again." He systematically shredded away all pretense, urging me to just say the words quickly and mean them. Jack Lemmon's story about "less is more" was a guiding principle: "Let's do another one this time, just a little bit less. If I do any less, I'm not gonna be acting... Exactly, Jack exactly."
Rehearsing with Brad Pitt was intense. We stayed at a little hotel near the location and rehearsed the night before shooting that sequence. It was hard not to react to the power of what he was throwing at me. It was an incredible culmination of how my character could manipulate and ultimately succeed.
Fincher's directing style is known for numerous takes, averaging 25 to 65 per scene, whereas most directors do fewer than 10. Sometimes it was about timing; he would even use a stopwatch to time how long a scene was taking, aiming to shave minutes off here and there. Fincher hates indulgence and wants people to talk the way they do in life. We don't take big dramatic pauses before we speak; we say what we want.
We got into a different kind of acting in the late fifties and sixties, and a lot of actors are feeling it. If you want to keep an audience engaged as Fincher does, pace, timing, movement, clarity, and speed are essential. The goal for actors under Fincher's direction is to strip away all the pretense of acting and become human.
Sam Mendes also influenced my portrayal of Richard III. He eventually whittled it down to like three specific actions, saying, "Maybe your arm and maybe your leg, but let's get rid of the other 10 things that you brought into the room." Fincher defines acting as the dramatization of a text and performing as the seduction of an audience. My job is to serve the writing. When people stop me and talk to me about a character I've played and reference their name as if they actually exist, that's when I feel like I've gotten close to doing my job.
To me, that's the greatest compliment as an actor. Great characters become part of you in some way—the good, the bad, and the ugly of them. I want to work in such a way that the audience has the same experience I had when I first read the script.
🎨 Great characters live within you, shaping your soul. 🌟
The dynamic between the characters in the scene with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman was an incredible culmination of how my character could manipulate in the way that he did and, in the end, succeed. Working with Brad was intense but rewarding, and rehearsing the night before shooting allowed us to bring an authentic energy to the scene. The power he brought to his performance was hard not to react to, making the experience even more immersive.
David Fincher is known for his meticulous directing style, often averaging 25 to 65 takes per scene, whereas most directors do fewer than 10. Sometimes it was about timing; he would even use a stopwatch to time how long a scene was taking, aiming to shave minutes off here and there. Fincher hates indulgence and wants people to talk the way they do in life. We don't take big dramatic pauses before we speak; we say what we want.
We got into a different kind of acting in the late fifties and sixties, and a lot of actors are feeling it. If you want to keep an audience engaged as Fincher does, pace, timing, movement, clarity, and speed are essential. The goal for actors under Fincher's direction is to strip away all the pretense of acting and become human.
Sam Mendes also influenced my portrayal of Richard III. He eventually whittled it down to like three specific actions, saying, "Maybe your arm and maybe your leg, but let's get rid of the other 10 things that you brought into the room." Fincher defines acting as the dramatization of a text and performing as the seduction of an audience. My job is to serve the writing. When people stop me and talk to me about a character I've played and reference their name as if they actually exist, that's when I feel like I've gotten close to doing my job.
To me, that's the greatest compliment as an actor. Great characters become part of you in some way—the good, the bad, and the ugly of them. I want to work in such a way that the audience has the same experience I had when I first read the script. When I read something for the first time, whether it's a script or a play, and I am absolutely devastated by it, it is the most extraordinary, the most beautiful, the most life-affirming, or terrifying. It's then a process of working backwards to bring that initial feeling to the audience.
Improvisation plays a significant role in the rehearsal room. It can be a wonderful device. Sometimes, we bring rugs, chairs, and sofas into the space and experiment with different setups. For example, Fincher might say, "Let's put two chairs here and here. You guys, let's start in these chairs far apart from each other. Let's see what happens with the scene if you're that far apart."
Theater, to me, is like sports. The rules are the same, but it's a different game every time you're out on that court or field. The difference between theater and film is that no matter how good someone might think you are in a movie, you'll never be any better—it's frozen. Whereas I can be better tomorrow night than I was tonight.
Performing in theater comes with its unique challenges and joys. If you mess it up, everyone gets to see you do that. And if you start giggling on stage, everyone gets to see that too, which I am very guilty of. The camaraderie and bond that theater creates, especially when you're traveling, are unparalleled.
🎭 Theater is like sports—every show is a new game! 🏀✨
Forrest Gump is the guy I'm friends with. Characters like him just kind of become part of you in some way—the good, the bad, and the ugly of them. When I read something for the first time, whether it's a script or a play, and I am absolutely devastated by it, it is the most extraordinary, the most beautiful, the most life-affirming, or terrifying. It's then a process of working backwards. You might ask yourself, "What's the last line you have in this scene before you fall over and fall asleep?" KO is knockout, which is a boxing term, the only one the writer uses in the play. I realized that the playwright wrote the last round, the eighth round between these two brothers, and it was a fight—physical as well as emotional. You have to ask yourself questions you haven't asked yet. What does that line mean? And then, work backwards.
Improvisation plays a significant role in the rehearsal room. It can be a wonderful device. Sometimes, we bring rugs, chairs, and sofas into the space and experiment with different setups. For example, Fincher might say, "Let's put two chairs here and here. You guys, let's start in these chairs far apart from each other. Let's see what happens with the scene if you're that far apart."
Theater, to me, is like sports. The rules are the same, but it's a different game every time you're out on that court or field. The difference between theater and film is that no matter how good someone might think you are in a movie, you'll never be any better—it's frozen. Whereas I can be better tomorrow night than I was tonight. Performing in theater comes with its unique challenges and joys. If you mess it up, everyone gets to see you do that. And if you start giggling on stage, everyone gets to see that too, which I am very guilty of. The camaraderie and bond that theater creates, especially when you're traveling, are unparalleled.
Every single day when you show up in the rehearsal room, it's the whole company. You're all up for it every day. You're learning, you're growing, you're trying, and there is an incredible trust that happens. There's also a sad moment where, at the end, everybody is really sad to say goodbye because you do form a family, and then it's over. Six months later, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and think, "Ah, that's how to play that scene. Oh God, I just finally figured it out."
I don't really think there is any difference between film and theater acting. You eventually learn about yourself on film. However, in theater, a particular kind of energy, almost like that of an athlete, is required. You have to have the vocal strength to get up seven performances a week, never lose your voice, always be there, always be alive, and always do the best work you can, which you just don't require in film. I have literally laughed through speeches that I had to give because my fellow actors were putting carrots up their noses or broccoli in their ears. Judi Dench is the worst giggler of all. They had to bring the curtain down on her and Maggie Smith because they were laughing so hard they could not continue the play.
Improvisation has its value, but I have not experienced it as much in doing plays as I have sometimes in film. Sometimes, you'll start off rehearsing, and a director may say, "Let's just go off book and see what happens." I remember a memorable experience with Al Pacino. In the middle of a take, Al starts talking about me. "Oh Kevin, you don't think we know how you got this job? You don't think we know whose dick you've been sucking on to get this part in this movie?" I was literally like, I don't know what the hell is happening, but I'm reacting. After the take, Al walked up to me and went, "Oh, that was so good. Oh my God, that was so good. Just so you know, the sound, I asked them not to record, so you have no dialogue, so it's just me. Oh, that was so good. You look like a car wreck." And that's the take. It was my closeup. And yeah, that's the take.