Wellness Expert

True fulfillment comes from within; it's time to shift from a head-centered existence to a heart-centered life.

We live in a world that continues to foster this lifestyle of dopamine heads. This is why people drink, turn out to screens, and chase the next thing. We all want to feel good. This work is teaching you the truth: you don't need something outside of yourself to feel love. I tend to live in my head most of the time, but I also know that the brain isn't the only source of intelligence at our disposal. Often overlooked is a greater and more powerful source of wisdom: the intelligence of the heart.

What science is showing now is that there's this power center inside of us that, when we start to awaken it, gives us the energy, the greater health, and the deeper relationships that we're looking for. Here to help me and you unlock the wisdom of nourishing a more heart-centered approach to life is Kimberly Snyder. Kimberly is a multiple New York Times best-selling author, and the occasion for this conversation is her latest book, The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts.

Just by putting some of our attention on your heart right now as we're talking, research published in the American Journal of Cardiology shows that this alone starts to rewire your nervous system. Your heart sends more messages to your brain, which changes your perceptions. The next thing that changes is your thoughts, then your feelings, and your emotions change. Your stress responses change. This is how you change your life. Most people don't know about this stuff, which is why it's so exciting because A) it works, B) it's evidence-based and scientific, and C) it's experiential. Just try it!

So, where should I begin? What should I do?

Well, today's episode is brought to you by the awesome organizations that make this show possible. Kimberly, I’m delighted to have you here today. It’s so nice to see you!

It’s great to be here with you, Rich. I’m excited to explore being more heart-centered. I think I’m probably not alone; most people, I imagine, live most of their time in their heads. As a sort of preface for this discussion, I am fully aware that I have a great deal of self-awareness. Every great leap that I've made in my life has been a direct result of tapping into my heart or originating from that heart-centered place. Yet, in the wake of those experiences and successes, my head can always be counted on to rush back in, fill that void, take credit for whatever happened, and allow the ego to take residence there. This is a constant, ongoing conversation that I'm having with my wife because, without some kind of contrary action, I will continue to reside in my head.

You’re absolutely right, Rich. So much of the suffering we see today—the self-doubt, the confusion, the lack of purpose, the fear—is because we’re overthinking. When we talk about heart-centered living, I think right away a lot of people say, "Oh, that sounds nice." As a culture, we sort of assign the heart to romantic or sentimental notions, or Hallmark cards. But what we're talking about when we say the heart is really the heart-brain. There’s so much science now showing that it’s not that the brain isn’t important, but we’re talking about heart coherence and syncing the heart, the brain, and the nervous system.

There are actually 40,000 neurons in your heart. Those of us who are parents remember going in when our children were young; I recall during my pregnancy, the doctor saying, "Look, the heartbeat comes before the brain." This is a miracle, this incredible intelligence. There’s something directing what’s going on in development that doesn’t involve the brain.

What science is showing now is that there’s a way of creating more clarity, more focus, more energy, more vitality, hormonal balance, and gut health from actually accessing your heart. To your point, it can heighten intuition. This is something that has been talked about in ancient traditions around the world, from the Babylonians to the Greeks. The Egyptians didn’t take the heart out of the mummy, and spiritual traditions have emphasized this. Only in the recent hundred years or so has there been such an emphasis on just brain, brain, brain, linear, linear, linear.

The research that is in this book, along with our own studies, shows that all the things we want—clarity, greater success, material things, and greater health—actually come from starting to sync up this power center. It’s not sentimental; this is really practical what we’re talking about.

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Unlocking the hidden power of your heart can elevate your clarity, energy, and intuition, transforming your life from the inside out.

Accessing your heart, and to your point, it can heighten intuition. This is something that's been talked about in ancient traditions around the world, from the Babylonians to the Greeks. The Egyptians, for instance, didn't take the heart out of the mummy, highlighting its significance in spiritual traditions. Only in the recent, let's say, hundred years or so has there been such an emphasis on just brain, brain, brain, linear thinking.

The research presented in this book, along with our own studies, shows that all the things we desire—clarity, success, material wealth, and greater health—actually come from starting to synchronize this power center. It's not sentimental; this is really practical. On one hand, we have all the ancient traditions and the practices shared across a multiplicity of faiths over millennia. I want to delve into that, but what I didn't expect to see in your book were all these graphs, like heart rhythm graphs, and the science and studies on the actual impact of certain practices that can bring you into greater coherence between the heart and brain.

While researching for my last book, which came out in 2021, I came across a fascinating piece of research about the heart-brain connection. Having worked in wellness for close to 15 years, I was surprised that I didn’t know this. I thought, what is going on? How come I don't know this? Why doesn't everyone know this? Thus, I began exploring the science. Simultaneously, I was reading a book called The Holy Science, written by Yogananda, who brought yoga to the West. I've always been interested in spirituality worldwide, and in this book, he discusses the five states of the human heart from the ancient Vedic texts.

As I delved into the science, I noticed that these heart stages align with the scientific findings. Essentially, a dark heart scientifically means that the heart and brain aren't communicating effectively. This is where we start to feel a push-pull in life, making it arduous and confusing. In contrast, the state known as heart-brain harmony or the clear heart allows us to move from a deep place of flow and harmony with life.

To comment on that, there is a fascinating intersection between spirituality and science. You don’t have to be spiritual to benefit from this heart-brain information and learn how to awaken the heart-brain connection. There is a wealth of science available, but the intersection with spirituality is truly captivating.

The main thesis of the book, titled The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts, is that I want everyone to know about this power center inside of us. This center acts as an anchor, and when we start to awaken it, it provides us with clarity, energy, greater health, deeper relationships, and access to more intuition. Importantly, this power is not found outside of us; it does not require attachment to relationships, biohacking devices, or specific foods. While those things can be beneficial—I have explored that path and live a healthy life, sleep well, and use non-toxic products—when I began accessing this power, I would say my energy increased by about 70%.

This increase in energy stems from the fact that all these little ups and downs in life affect us. For instance, just two minutes of feeling irritation can trigger 1,500 different biochemical processes that ultimately drain your energy. So, while my lifestyle was clean and well-conceived on the outside, all these little triggers—like an unpleasant email, stress responses, or traffic—would cause emotional resonance, leading to an up-and-down experience throughout the day.

When we learn to create more coherence, what it feels like is zooming out from the daily ups and downs. I want people to know that there is a way to increase your energy, reduce stress, and enhance the things we desire from within. This realization blew me away, and I want everyone to have this knowledge.

How is this qualitatively different from the more commonplace discussions around mindfulness, anxiety reduction, mental health, and improving sleep? We can segment all these topics, but the heart-brain connection offers a unique perspective that integrates and enhances these areas.

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Shift your focus from your mind to your heart and watch your life transform. It's not just about thinking positively; it's about rewiring your entire perception and emotional response.

In our daily lives, we often find ourselves caught in a cycle of stress and anxiety, reacting to various stimuli such as emails, traffic, or interpersonal communications. This constant up and down can be exhausting. However, when we learn to create more coherence in our lives, it feels like we are zooming out from these daily stressors. I want people to know that there is a way to increase your energy, reduce stress, and enhance the things we desire from within. This realization truly blew me away, and I want everyone to have this knowledge.

The concept of tapping into the heart-brain is qualitatively different from the more commonplace discussions surrounding mindfulness, anxiety reduction, mental health, and improving sleep. While we can segment these areas and strive for greater balance through various practices, I believe we are discussing something altogether different. Thank you for bringing this up because how many times have we heard phrases like "be mindful," "think more positively," or "love yourself"? I used to admire Eckhart Tolle, who advises us to "go beyond thinking."

The difference with this work is that we are seeking solutions in a different place than where the challenges arise. For instance, if the challenge lies in our thoughts, which often occupy our minds, we can shift our focus down into our hearts. Some of these practices are incredibly simple yet powerful. Just by directing your attention to your heart right now, as we converse, research published in the American Journal of Cardiology shows that this alone can start to rewire your nervous system.

This concept of neuroplasticity extends beyond the brain; it also encompasses the connection between your heart and brain. What does this mean for our daily lives? It means we can break free from old patterns. This is significant because your heart sends more messages to your brain than vice versa, which alters your perceptions. The five hearts represent five stages and different realities. When your perceptions change, your thoughts and feelings shift, leading to changes in your stress responses and ultimately transforming your life.

For example, I could perceive a situation as overwhelmingly difficult or view it with excitement. This shift impacts what happens on a physiological level, making it practical and accessible. What amazed me was how simple some of these tools are; many can be executed in just 3 to 10 seconds. I frequently use them when my kids are having tantrums or when I receive an unwelcome work email. By consistently shifting to this different heart-brain perspective, I find myself breaking free from the same triggered, reactive patterns.

This approach diverges from the typical discourse surrounding mindfulness and mindset. While mindset pertains to how we perceive the world, this practice encourages us to let go of that mindset entirely, allowing us to arrive at a place of no mind. Many individuals report feelings of expansion and a sense of being bigger and wider when engaging in these practices. We often become fixated on specific outcomes—like needing to be married by a certain age or achieving a particular income—leading to a sense of control. Instead, we can embrace a broader perspective that fosters creativity and problem-solving.

Additionally, emotional intelligence grows through these practices, as research consistently shows that it correlates more closely with actual success than IQ. This ability to escape entrenched patterns allows the heart to guide us spiritually. As the heart awakens, the third eye opens, enabling us to see ourselves more clearly each day. We begin to understand why others perceive us in certain ways or recognize our role in recurring conflicts, such as arguments with a spouse.

There are numerous practical benefits to this approach. I have been studying spirituality for several decades, traveling extensively after college, and meditating for over 15 years. When I began working with these concepts, the impact was profound.

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Emotional intelligence is the true key to success, revealing deeper insights and connections that transform our lives and relationships.

Emotional intelligence grows, which research study after research study shows is more on par with actual success than IQ. This ability to get out of these patterns, this dynamic way that the heart can show you spiritually, can be described as the heart awakening and the third eye opening. This process allows one to see oneself more clearly every day. It's like, "Whoa, I could see why this person thinks I'm acting harsh," or "I could see my part in this repeated argument with my spouse." There is so much practical benefit to this.

Again, I say I've been studying spirituality for a few decades—backpacking after college, going to India, and traveling around the world for three years. I have been meditating for over 15 years. When I started working with this concept right here in the middle of life, I realized that bringing it moment to moment is challenging. Some of these lofty ideas, like "just be mindful" or "be positive," are almost impossible to implement because we have built-in neural networks and patterns; the amygdala is going off. Instead, as you mentioned, when we come to this deeper place, we have the ability to blast through these patterns. I have seen that in my work. As I bring this work into my clients' lives, I have witnessed people overcome food cravings, individuals who were once very angry becoming calmer, and mothers becoming more patient. So many incredible transformations occur in daily life.

What led you to this field of inquiry specifically? As someone who has been immersed in wellness and all these practices, and by your own account, has been studying spirituality for so long, what jumped out to you about the world of heart coherence that made you feel the necessity to write a book about it and share all of this?

This is my eighth book, Rich, and since the beginning, I have been cranking them out. However, there is never a moment where I sit around and think, "Okay, even though I do get this pressure from my publisher about what I am going to write about," I always wait for spanda, which is the Sanskrit word for inspiration. My mantra has always been, "What am I dying to share? What do I really want people to know? What has helped me the most?"

To be honest, I was not planning to write a book around the heart. I was working on my last book when I came across this research. I started going down the rabbit hole and contacted the HeartMath Institute. We did a podcast swap, and I began reading hundreds of their studies; they have published over 400 studies. We ended up conducting a heart alignment study together. The changes I saw in my life were profound, and when I started practicing it with my clients, it was astonishing. This passion inside me said, "Everybody needs to know this."

What is happening in the world, Rich, with all the separation within ourselves, the confusion, the fear, and the low energy, is occurring on both an individual and a collective level. I truly believe that the more of us awaken to this, it is for individual benefit, but it also is how we start to change society around us. This change begins with our families, friends, workplaces, and our children's schools. There is a resonance to this, and we can talk about the measurable ways in which these fields operate.

I am really curious about the HeartMath Institute and the fact that this even exists. I want to know all about that. But before we get to that, I think it is important to anchor ourselves in an awareness of the great Maya that defines the world, specifically in the West, which is this delusion of separation. This idea suggests that, on some level, we are in control of our destiny. In order to feel safe and secure and as if we have agency, we cling to these ideas that are rooted in our minds about how we should live our lives. However, those notions are a product of the environment in which we were raised.

That environment is one of competition and individual achievement; that is what we celebrate and what we sell. As a result, we explore our sense of connection through accomplishment. Where you and I are very alike is in being raised in environments where that was interpreted as a priority. We were taught to get good grades and climb the ladder; this is how you make your way in the world. Consequently, we gain our sense of self and form the architecture of our identity around external validation—what signals we are receiving from the outside world.

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True fulfillment comes from within, not from external achievements or validation.

The notions about how we should live our lives are, of course, a product of the environment in which we're raised. This environment is characterized by competition and individual achievement, which is what we celebrate and sell. As a result, we explore our sense of connection through accomplishment. You and I share a common experience of being raised in environments where this was interpreted as a priority—for instance, getting good grades and climbing the ladder of success. Consequently, we gain our sense of self and form the architecture of our identity around external validation. We often look for signals from the outside world that indicate we are on the right track. This approach is antithetical to the idea of letting go of all that and tapping into something deeper about who we are—an identity that transcends those definitions. This concept can be difficult for the Western mind to grasp, yet it is essential for our journey towards greater self-actualization, purpose, meaning, and happiness—all of which we desire but often lack.

The five heart stages can be likened to going on a hike. At the bottom, you might only see the parking lot, but as you ascend, your vantage point changes. For anyone listening who thinks, "That sounds nice, but I can't even imagine letting go of everything," it's important to understand that the shift begins with small steps. You can't truly envision how different things can be until your heart starts to awaken. The heart align study provides powerful insights; participants engaged in a practice lasting less than eight minutes, four to five times a week. After 30 days, we measured their coherence using mwave Pro equipment, which is highly sensitive and not just a basic tracker. On average, coherence increased by 29%. This was measured not only through actual heart rate variability (HRV) numbers but also through the patterns observed.

Moreover, as clarity increased in participants, their cortisol levels decreased by 29%, while DHEA levels rose by 100%. This intense research indicates that even if you feel disconnected from your heart—something we all experience during dark heart stages—you can begin to awaken in small increments. This gradual awakening helps build what is known as your coherence capacity. In everyday life, this translates to greater resilience against stress and more natural energy. The dark heart, scientifically speaking, is characterized by incoherence, which manifests as erratic HRV patterns, low energy, and confusion.

The propelled heart, which many of us have experienced, is where we often find ourselves—constantly on the go, feeling that there is never enough, and struggling with restlessness, anxiety, and burnout. It’s a state where we check things off our list, always looking for the next goal. A significant shift occurs when you reach stage three, known as the steady heart. In this stage, you begin to feel more anchored and resilient within yourself. It’s important to note that we can flow in and out of all these stages throughout the day or even within an hour. For instance, I might feel steady but then encounter something distressing, like news about an election, which can trigger fear. Typically, we tend to inhabit one stage primarily over different periods.

Personally, I feel that I spend most of my time in stage two, occasionally flirting with stage three. However, when I consider stages four and five, they seem like foreign territory to me, and that can be intimidating. There is a letting go and surrender aspect involved, requiring us to release long-held beliefs about who we are and what is important.

To illustrate this further, I want to share a quote from Shuk Tesar, who teaches that the core essentials of life are sat (existence), chit (consciousness), and anand (bliss). These three elements are the true necessities of the human heart and have nothing to do with anything outside of us.

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Letting go of external validation opens the door to authentic connection and true inner peace.

In our journey through different stages of life, I tend to inhabit one stage primarily. I feel like I live most of the time in that stage, occasionally flirting with stage three. However, when I encounter stages four and five, I'm like that looks like foreign territory to me. It appears daunting, as there is a letting go and surrender aspect involved. This process requires relinquishing long-held beliefs about who we are and what is important to us.

I recently came across a quote from Shuk Tesar, who teaches that the core essentials of life are sat (existence), chit (consciousness), and ananda (bliss). These three elements are the true necessities of the human heart and are unrelated to anything outside of oneself. When I began this work and engaged in practices like building heart coherence and breath work, I initially questioned what this meant. I thought, I need my family; I want people to be safe. As my heart started to awaken, I realized how deeply entrenched I was in various attachments. I felt a need for approval: I need you to like me, I need you to think I'm smart, I need you to love me, I need you to spend time with me, I need you to choose me, I need you to follow me on social media—the list goes on.

As I began to anchor in more, I discovered that this sensitive equipment, which tracks my HRV patterns, allowed me to drop these attachments. What emerged instead was a sense of connection. When you no longer feel needy, you can be more connected to others in a more authentic way. This shift opens up communication and enhances emotional intelligence. The expansion we discussed earlier allows for a more fluid approach to life. For instance, if something doesn’t work out, such as a person not being the right fit for a date, it becomes easier to pivot and flow in a different direction without the stress response that typically accompanies resistance.

This is why there is a strong correlation between higher vitality, hormonal balance, and better immunity. Our bodies are not constantly jammed into the sympathetic nervous system response. The notion of detaching from externalities is essentially another way of saying surrender. You have to surrender your idea of yourself and your sense of what you think you need. Clinging to outcomes—whether it’s about being liked or receiving approval—can be a significant challenge for many people.

I invite you to walk me through how these practices discussed in the book can liberate us from these attachments. On some level, we all grapple with unhealthy attachments to externalities, and it’s refreshing to hear that it’s possible to let go of them. Perhaps it’s not as complex as the mental health world often suggests. Many might wonder, Should I go to a therapist and sit with them for years to make peace with my childhood trauma? However, you seem to indicate that there is a more direct route to liberation.

To provide some context, I have personally experienced extreme anxiety, insomnia, and feelings of inadequacy stemming from my childhood. I struggled with eating disorders and the belief that I was never enough. Despite achieving milestones like becoming a published author and a New York Times bestseller, the pursuit of external validation felt endless. We live in a world that fosters a lifestyle of ups and downs, constantly seeking dopamine hits from social media or financial success.

When you begin to utilize these tools and genuinely experience coherence, it transcends mere thoughts. It’s not just about the idea of going beyond thought; it’s about feeling lighter and noticing a shift in perceptions. Somehow, I feel more peaceful. This transformative experience is what makes the journey worthwhile.

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True fulfillment comes from connecting deeply with ourselves and others, not from chasing external validations.

Never Enough is a concept that many people grapple with in their lives. The desire to become a published author, to achieve the status of a New York Times bestseller, or to reach number one can feel endless. We live in a world that continues to foster a lifestyle filled with ups and downs, where we often find ourselves seeking validation through external achievements. For instance, we might measure our worth by how well a social media post performs, the money we make from a project, or the enjoyment of a recent vacation. This reliance on external validation is a result of societal conditioning, as it is how many around us live.

However, when we begin to utilize certain tools and truly experience coherence, the transformation can be profound. This experience is not merely an abstract idea of going beyond thought; rather, it manifests as a feeling of lightness and peace. It is about being present in our bodies, specifically at the center of your power, which is your heart. In this state, even a typical morning or workday can feel lighter and more enjoyable. This newfound experience propels us to delve deeper into simple practices that promote emotional well-being.

In my own journey, I noticed a significant decrease in bickering with my husband—about 90% less. Issues that once bothered me, like dirty socks on the floor or a comment he made, began to fade away. This change didn't occur through force or struggle; instead, it happened in a more dynamic way, aligning with how our neurons and the heart-brain operate, which is fundamentally different from the linear mind.

As we progress, we enter what I refer to as the devoted heart stage. Here, we become anchored within ourselves and start to prioritize love, peace, compassion, and care. While this may sound unattainable for some, the experience of living in this state feels incredibly rewarding. It resembles having a meaningful conversation that truly matters, as opposed to the mundane routine of checking items off a to-do list.

There is a section in this journey that emphasizes the importance of never missing an opportunity to serve. Research indicates that serving others brings joy, yet many of us feel too busy to engage in volunteer work. However, serving does not have to be grand; it can occur in everyday moments. For instance, noticing someone struggling during a Zoom call and offering kindness, or showing genuine care to a cashier at Target, can make a significant impact.

As we cultivate this mindset, we naturally develop emotional intelligence and find that we can manifest our desires more easily, particularly on a material level. This occurs not from a place of pushing or grasping, which often feels arduous, but from a state of high coherence and alignment with our true selves.

A question arises regarding the purity of motivation. Is it necessary for our intentions to be entirely selfless? For example, one might approach someone at Target with kindness for self-serving reasons, such as wanting to feel better about themselves, rather than from a place of genuine altruism. Reflecting on my experiences with yoga in New York City, I encountered individuals who approached the practice with a focus on physical appearance, such as wanting good abs, rather than seeking mindfulness or stillness.

Ultimately, whether one engages in heart-centered work for personal success or to contribute positively to the world, the journey of the heart is unpredictable. As we immerse ourselves in these teachings and practices, we may find that the heart's journey leads us to unexpected and fulfilling places.

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Your motivations may start small, but the journey of self-discovery transforms them into something greater. Embrace the practice, and watch how it reshapes your perspective and opens your heart.

I used to do yoga in New York City, and I had this idea coming from India that yoga is a spiritual practice. However, I would meet people who were more focused on having good ABS rather than engaging in mindfulness or creating more stillness. They were there for different reasons, but who can say though? As they were on the mat and spending that time, some of that stillness was still filtering in.

Whether you come into this heart work because you really want to create more material success or you genuinely want to help the world, ultimately, when you start to read these teachings and engage in this coherence work, we don't know where the heart's journey is going to take you. But I know one thing: you're going to get more coherent and more clear. In that clarity, you begin to move away from those little perceptions that often cause unkindness and selfishness. Instead of seeing only "me, me, me," you start to recognize that "this person is really struggling." It becomes less about taking things personally and more about opening up to the world around you.

The teachings suggest that there is a natural kindness and more peacefulness inside each one of us. However, there are layers, wounds, and reactivity from the past that block this innate kindness. Does that answer your question? Yes, it does. The cliff notes I gather from this are that irrespective of your motivations, the practices and walking this path transform those motivations over time. If you can approach it from whatever perspective you are harboring in the moment, the mere act of doing it becomes transformative in itself.

You have a great Yoganand quote in your book that I love: "From the minute you set foot on the spiritual path, nothing happens by coincidence." I know this to be true; I've seen it manifest many times in other people. This is the way my wife lives; she’s very heart-centered and approaches the world and her relationships from that place. As a result, things kind of just come to her. You can chalk it up as coincidence—like how she happens to meet the right person at the right time. You talk a lot about dating and how this heart-centeredness operates in that world.

The point being, when you're inhabiting that more heart-centered perspective and approach to life, you become like a beacon that attracts whatever you need to experience into your life without effort. It’s a place of allowing rather than the hard, intellectual-focused approach of "making it happen" or engaging in "hustle porn" to create the outcomes you desire. The clear heart, which alludes to what you're speaking about, suggests that everyone’s heart has this potential. I believe everyone’s heart is equal, but the clear heart is more transparent. These five heart stages represent different realities.

In the West, there is so much ego. We see movies where characters like Bruce Willis proclaim, "I woke up; I have the power! I can save the world!" This "me, me, me" mentality contrasts sharply with the awakening of the heart, where you begin to realize that true power lies in connection and compassion.

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True power lies in the clarity of the heart, not in the hustle. When you align your heart and mind, synchronicity unfolds effortlessly.

It's a place of allowing rather than the hard kind of intellectual focused approach of like going out and making it happen or hustle porn in order to create the outcome that you so desire. The clear heart, the fifth stage, alludes to what you're speaking about. Again, I believe everyone's heart has this potential; everyone's heart is equal. When we think of something clear, it's more transparent. These five heart stages represent different realities.

There is so much ego in the West. You see this in movies where characters proclaim, "I woke up!"—like in the Bruce Willis movies—where they assert, "I have the power! I can save the world! I can save the building! I save the people! Me, me, me! I have the power!" However, as the heart awakens, you realize you become more humble. You understand that there are just different fields of energy moving through, and you're stepping into a different field where more synchronicity can take place.

I'll give you a personal example about that. This isn't just about feeling good; this is measurable. Again, by HeartMath and sensitive equipment known as magnetometers, which measure magnetic fields, we find that the heart is actually emitting a field. You and I are in a field right now that's 100 times stronger than the brain. It extends out 8 to 10 feet as an electromagnetic field. As you become more coherent—scientifically, the syncing up of heart and brain—your field becomes stronger, more harmonious, and you could say more magnetic. This is why you feel more approachable. Someone might say, "Hey, what are you working on, Rich? I'd love to help you," or "Hey, what's going on?" Someone may even want to ask you out on a date.

I remember a day when I was in this clear heart space, just feeling really clear and not overthinking. I stepped out of my apartment in New York City, and the sun was shining. I was really present. I didn't have the language to say it was the clear heart, but I was just walking around the city. I had sent my third book to Deepak Chopra, and after a lot of following up, he gave a great quote. However, I always felt like I was supposed to do more with this person.

When I got to Union Square, I usually walked diagonally across the park to get to a meeting place where I had a lot of meetings. But that day, I felt this deep gut-heart impetus telling me to move a different way. So, I walked around the outside of the park, which didn’t make sense because it would take longer to get there. Who do I run into on the street? Deepak Chopra! I said, "Deepak, it's me, Kimberly! You reviewed my book." He gave me his cell phone, and we met about three weeks later in a coffee shop. We sat for two hours and decided to write a book together called Radical Beauty, which went on to become a New York Times bestseller.

This is not something you can plan, whiteboard, or script. It's also not about saying, "Oh, I'm so powerful! I'm special! You're a powerful manifestor!" No, it's about recognizing that we all have this potential. The groundedness of this work shows you that if you do these tools, your coherence will grow too. This isn't about anyone being better than anyone else. In our study, participants spent about 32 to 36 minutes a week to grow 29% coherence. Think about all the time we spend on extra workouts or scrolling through our phones. If we just spent a little bit of time in our daily life on this heart work—something I'm so passionate about sharing—it will make a huge difference in your life.

Now, if someone is new to this notion and doesn't understand what you mean by "the work" or "the practices," what do these entail? Would you like to do a one-minute practice, or should I tell you about it?

No, let's just do it.

Alright, so I need to be present with you, Kimberly. I came to this podcast with my outline; I read the book. I'm coming from my mind, wanting this to be a great experience for you. I want you to like me, and I want the audience to be nourished by this. However, all of that gets in the way of me just being present with you and connecting with you from a heart space.

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Focusing on your heart can transform your mindset and energy, leading to a deeper connection with yourself and others.

Sharing it will make a huge difference in your life. To give a taste of what that work is specifically, I mean, you go through it at length in the book, time and time again throughout the chapters. However, if somebody is new to this notion, they might not understand what you mean by the work or the practices. What do these entail?

Do you want to do a one-minute practice? Do you want me to tell you about it? No, let's just do it.

All right, so I need to connect with Kimberly. Because I came to this podcast with my outline, I read the book, and I'm coming from my mind. I want this to be a great experience for you. I want you to like me, and I want the audience to be nourished by this. However, all of that gets in the way of me just being present with you, connecting with you from a heart space, and trusting that whatever we're going to talk about is going to be the best version of whatever this could be.

There's a war that's always going on in my mind, but you know what I also feel? The second I saw you today, there’s this incredible heart field around you that’s natural and huge. I think this work, as heady as you are, is going to start to give you a taste of actually not just talk. We've been talking about the heart so much—how it feels to actually be in your heart more and more and how simple this is.

All right, let's do it. What are we going to do? You're showing me some craft. As I say that, I'm holding up this graph. I just want to show this is the HRV pattern, not the number that you get on an AA ring, but the pattern of someone who’s angry. It’s chaotic and disordered. This is what it looks like when you are in appreciation: you see these smooth sine waves, this beautiful regularity. It’s sort of like a lake where the water is just lapping time and time again. This is the experience of clarity, energy, and vitality.

So, I preface that as we go into this practice. We’re going to do an abbreviated version. The first thing we’re going to do—and anyone can do this with us, except if you’re driving, of course—don’t close your eyes. You can come back to this later. We’re just going to close our eyes down, and straight away, you’re going to place your attention on your heart.

We’re talking about the physical heart, the energetic heart, this place in the center of your chest. If it helps you connect, you can even put your hand there, although it’s not entirely necessary. Just to incorporate this incredible research for the discerning mind, just by doing this, you start to rewire your nervous system. This is published in the American Journal of Cardiology. Just by putting some of your attention—and eventually more and more of your attention—on your heart in this moment, you start to awaken those neurons. You’re starting to create change in your organs right now.

Now, keeping your attention on your heart, you’re going to start to breathe in and out of your heart as if it’s a giant lung. I’ll do one round of counting, which is known as coherence building breath: five in, five out. So, you’re going to focus on your heart, and we’re going to imagine we’re breathing into it for a count of one, two, three, four, five. Now, you’re going to exhale out of your heart for one, two, three, four, five.

Now, we’re going to drop the counting, and you’re just going to keep that nice slow breath going with your full focus on your heart. It helps to imagine you’re breathing in and out of your heart. While you’re continuing to focus on your heart, I’d like you to recall someone or something that makes you feel appreciation, which is a mix of gratitude, awe, and approval. It could be a loved one, a sunset, or a pet. But really tap into that feeling; you can self-generate it by recalling that person or that thing.

Once you have that deep feeling of appreciation—which can feel expansive; for me, it feels a little tingly and warm—drop the visual and just focus on the feeling of appreciation in your heart. We’re going to sustain this for just a few moments. If it drops and thoughts come in, just come right back. Really go there; feel really appreciative of that person or that thing in your life. Feel that energy in your heart for just a few more moments.

Then, you’re going to take another deep breath in and out, and then just take a moment to thank...

=> 00:43:53

You have the power to self-generate feelings of appreciation and joy from within; it's not about what you chase outside, but about activating your heart's intelligence.

To tap into that feeling, you can self-generate it by recalling that person or that thing. Once you have that deep feeling of appreciation, which can feel expansive—for me, it feels a little tingly and warm—drop the visual and just focus on the feeling of appreciation in your heart. We’re going to sustain this for just a few moments. If it drops and thoughts come in, just come right back. Really go there and feel really appreciative of that person or that thing in your life. Feel that energy in your heart for just a few more moments, and then you're going to take another deep breath in and out. After that, just take a moment to thank your amazing heart for its wisdom and to feel gratitude and appreciation for anything that arises spontaneously. When you're ready, you can float your eyes open.

I love it! Do you feel that energy shift? Definitely! My mind is a blank slate now, which might make for a different type of conversation going forward. I feel really good; it definitely was an energy shift. I would say that it peaked when I had to conjure the image, and then when you said to let go of the image, it became more difficult to hold on to that. I can feel the energetic emotional state.

This process is sort of like learning a new workout; it gets easier over time. Remember, the participants were doing it four to five times a week. What happens is, back to what we were saying about the steady heart, where you realize you don't need all this outside stuff to really feel good. You can self-generate these incredible energies inside of you in your heart, and there’s such intelligence that comes from that. It starts to get easier to do it, and then, you know what, Rich? This becomes your new baseline. Instead of all the chasing and doing things the same way, and always feeling the stress and always being up in your head, it feels so good to be in here.

We did that for a minute in the research study on this very meditation. We sustained that appreciation state for two minutes, which led to almost a third increase in coherence. On our website at mola.com, we have tracks of these meditations, which are free for everyone to use, paired with coherence-building music because the music also helps you stay present.

What is the half-life of this experience? How long does this persist, or does that increase with daily practice? It increases with daily practice. I said to Dr. Roland, who I was running the study with, “What if we did this study for two months or three months?” It just keeps building. He talks about this new baseline. You know, when you run a lot, you have this baseline for what your running pace is. I’m kind of making this up because I’m not a runner, but your baseline for running a mile gets easier and easier to sustain.

When we’re talking about activating this heart-brain, most of us have never experienced this. Going in and activating these 40,000 neurons may be difficult at first. For anyone listening to this or watching this, you might think, “Well, I didn’t feel much at first.” But you keep going in; you keep going in. The first heart stage is like turning on lights a little bit at a time. You start to feel a little bit more of that connection and a little bit more of that coherence, which feels so peaceful.

This is how you change your life, Rich. This is how your perceptions change. When you came out, you weren’t so heady; you weren’t so caught up in thinking. You were in a lighter state, so things come in, and you’re like, “Okay.” We realize this is what people are looking for. This is why people smoke weed so much, why people drink, and why they turn to screens. They’re chasing the next thing; they want to have a lot of followers on social media. We all want to feel good.

This heart work is teaching you the truth: you can feel good inside—not just this airy-fairy notion of “oh yeah, think positive thoughts, be mindful.” No, activate the heart-brain, go into heart coherence, sync up your nervous system, and learn about this. This is how you feel good.

I’m imagining the individual who has a spiritual allergy or for whom anything that even tiptoes into the realm of the woo is received with a complete tuning out. I would imagine you talk to some of these people from time to time. Make the case to the scientific-minded person who is anemic to more ethereal ideas. There’s nothing ethereal about this, Rich; we’re talking about science here.

=> 00:48:20

True heart coherence isn't just about positive thinking; it's a science-backed practice that can transform your well-being by syncing your nervous system and balancing your hormones.

To have a lot of followers on social media, we all want to feel good. This heart work is teaching you the truth, which is that you can feel good inside and not just in an airy-fairy way like, "oh yeah, think the positive thoughts, be mindful." No, you need to activate the heart brain, go into heart coherence, and sync up your nervous system. Learn about this; this is how you feel good.

I'm imagining the individual who has a spiritual allergy or for whom anything that even tiptoes into the realm of the woo is received with a complete tuning out. I would imagine you talk to some of these people from time to time. So, make the case to the scientific-minded person who is anemic to more ethereal ideas. There’s nothing ethereal about this, Rich; we’re talking about science here. It is true that ancient cultures have talked about the heart, but these practices are evidence-based. They are based on lab studies.

For instance, we referenced this earlier: what's so incredible about creating hormonal balance is that we've been taught that you need to take something to balance your hormones, or there are all these things or biohacking devices. This is measurable in a lab, in published respected journals like the American Journal of Cardiology. Hundreds of studies show that doing these simple practices can lead to significant changes. We didn’t get into the full coherence breathing and how that activates different parts of your nervous system, but it’s important to note that this reduced cortisol on average by 23% in one month. The DHEA I’m talking about refers to measurable hormones that you can assess in someone's body.

Here’s another thing I want to show you, Rich, on this topic because this is like you. You can take it to a spiritual level, but if you want to stay straight scientific and evidence-based, we’re talking about neurons and pathways. This research study is so powerful. People were asked to recall anger—not being angry, but to remember that person who said something to you or whatever it is—and to recall a time they felt care. For example, remember when you took care of your mother when she was sick. In both cases, IGA spiked, which is one of the ways to measure immunity, and then it dropped for six hours in the person that recalled anger. In contrast, with care, it remained elevated for six hours. This is measurable science.

What I’m talking about isn’t like saying you have to be a yogi or read the Vedic texts. It’s great if you are interested in ancient texts or ancient cultures, but this work is very scientific. It’s practical; it works, and it has been measured in labs and in everyday life. I have experienced it for myself, and this is why I’m so passionate about this book, Rich, and this work. I want everyone to know about this. I want everyone to know there’s a different way of living.

It’s interesting how the wisdom of Sri Yukteswar measures up with the science. The science kind of validates what he was talking about, however many years ago that was. Well, what about Ashwagandha being studied now, and the curcumin and the turmeric and the acupuncture? Haven't we seen that demonstrated time and time again? But to be clear, if someone is very rational and they’re an atheist or they don’t subscribe to that at all, this still works. We still have 40,000 neurons in the heart. Whatever your spiritual beliefs are, one of the things that I think is important to talk about here is the level of disconnection that most people inhabit with respect to their relationship with their heart.

As a culture, we live in our minds and are constantly being impulsed by inputs that make us reactive and further disconnected from whatever you want to call it—your higher self or your more self-actualized self. As a result, I think what happens is that when people believe they are acting in their heart's interest or that they’re following their heart, they are actually just reacting impulsively based on some kind of external stimuli that is confused as being heart-centered.

You know what I’m talking about. For example, consider the person who says, "My heart is telling me..." Mindful eating is a good example. They might say, "This is what my body is telling me it needs." But is it really? Have you done enough work on yourself to have that level of clarity, or are you making a rationalization to eat the thing that you want to eat? Or, "My heart is telling me that I should go on a date with this person," or "I should stay in a relationship with this person," despite...

=> 00:52:40

True heart-centered decisions come from calmness, not chaos. When you quiet the noise of your ego, clarity emerges, allowing you to see the truth behind your impulses.

People often believe that they are acting in their heart's interest or that they are following their intuition. However, they are actually just reacting impulsively based on some kind of external stimuli that is confused as being heart-centered. For example, consider the person who claims, "my heart is telling me" to engage in mindful eating. They might think, "This is what my body is telling me it needs." But the question arises: Is it really? Have they done enough work on themselves to have that level of clarity, or are they making a rationalization to eat the thing they want to eat?

Similarly, someone might say, "My heart is telling me that I should go on a date with this person," or "I should stay in a relationship with this person," despite evidence suggesting that the relationship is not healthy. This can also relate to continuing to enter relationships with the wrong person due to unresolved childhood trauma, which creates a preset that attracts them to these individuals. They might think, "Well, my heart is telling me to do this." However, this is very different from true heart-centeredness.

There is a quote in the book by Gandhi that states, "Renunciation precedes certainty." In other words, one must do enough of the internal work to reach a place of clarity where the heart-centered messaging is trustworthy enough to be relied upon. This involves the renunciation of the ego's way—letting go of old patterns, ideas, and opinions about how things should go.

One of the scientific attributes of coherence is calmness. Rich calmness precedes clarity, yet most people are not calm on a daily basis. They are often restless, constantly on their phones, and caught up in their heads. What we have attributed to the heart—such as erratic emotions like jealousy, overexerted passion, and envy—can often be a manifestation of the ego. When you are not calm, that is your ego speaking, not your heart.

As one practices the science of heart coherence, they begin to feel more calm. This shift creates a difference in the nervous system, moving away from sympathetic nervous system overdrive and allowing the parasympathetic nervous system to rebalance. This calmness fosters a different state of being, which influences how one perceives situations and makes decisions. For instance, someone might initially think they need to go on a date with a certain person, but as they calm down and gain clarity, they may recognize red flags and realize that while it’s hard for them to be alone, they will be okay taking some time for themselves.

This deeper detachment brings about an incredible calmness and clarity, which can be observed in day-to-day reactions and emotional intelligence. On a personal level, I experienced a significant increase in my energy—70%—which is a bold claim. While I already considered myself an energetic person who eats well and sleeps well, I often felt frazzled. I would manage my responsibilities, such as taking my kids to school and working all day, but I would also encounter little arguments and frustrations along the way.

Now, at the end of the day, I feel good because of this detachment; it’s like water off my back. Returning to the concept of heart stages, when the heart and brain aren't communicating, it leads to incoherence. This incoherence results in decreased efficiency on an organ level. When one is constantly in a state of fight or flight rather than rest and digest, blood flow is diverted from the GI tract, leading to less efficiency in the endocrine organs and a drop in immunity. These are very real and measurable effects, resulting in lower energy levels.

Thus, the connection between the psychological and physiological becomes evident. By living from the heart center, one is less affected by life's challenges, able to remain calm, less reactive, and more responsive. The body conserves energy, which science shows is more regenerative rather than depletive. Yes, I maintained a great diet, but I also noticed improvements in my overall well-being and energy levels.

=> 00:56:43

When your heart and brain are out of sync, your energy drops and stress takes over, but finding heart coherence can lead to a lighter, more peaceful life.

The heart and brain aren't speaking, which indicates incoherence. On an organ level, this results in less efficiency. When you are constantly in a state of fight or flight rather than rest and digest, blood flow is redirected away from your GI tract. This leads to decreased efficiency in your endocrine organs and a drop in immunity. These are very real, measurable effects. Consequently, your energy levels are lower, illustrating how the psychological becomes physiological.

Living from a heart-centered perspective allows you to be less reactive and more responsive. Your body and energy are conserved, becoming more regenerative instead of depletive. Personally, I had a great diet, managed to reduce my bloating, and improved my digestion. However, it was the reduction in being "dinged around" by life that brought back a natural lightness I hadn't felt in a long time. I can't even remember the last time I felt so light and at peace. This feeling is priceless. While I could celebrate reaching my ideal weight and other achievements, peace matters above all.

As a fellow striver, I am curious whether this shift also created great discomfort. I say this as someone who understands what it’s like to inhabit that frazzled space, often rubber-banding back into a lifestyle that leaves me exhausted at the end of the day. Part of this exhaustion stems from a belief that if I’m not depleted, I haven’t given my all. For instance, if I’m writing a book and don’t feel completely drained afterward, I convince myself that I didn’t work hard enough. Even after a podcast, if I don’t feel some sense of exhaustion, I question whether I put enough effort into it to make a significant impact.

This ties back to the self-awareness piece. I aspire to inhabit the more peaceful state you describe, but I also feel a resistance to it. I have a certain way of doing things that I’ve convinced myself is effective, shaped by my history as an athlete. In that realm, training hard often means you want to feel tired at the end of the day. It’s a roadmap, a whole architecture in my mind that I would need to relinquish to reach a place of ease.

One way I articulate this is by asking, what if it was easy? However, that thought can be uncomfortable and carries its own kind of fear. It’s essential to distinguish between easy and easeful. The patterns and beliefs we hold—like the notion that I must be exhausted to be successful—are deeply ingrained. These beliefs become further entrenched when I experience success, leading me to think, "This is how you do it," and I repeat those patterns. Eventually, this can lead to burnout or health issues.

What I’m sharing is powerful, but I’m not asking you to simply believe it; I’m asking you to experience it. For instance, during a meditation, when you feel something different—perhaps a sense of expansion or being outside your head—you begin to see how your baseline can shift. You might still live within your limited patterns and ideas, but by incorporating tools around heart coherence, you can start to notice changes.

Imagine being in a very heady, linear state, and then suddenly experiencing a shift. You might find that something that once bothered you no longer has the same effect. You become less reactive and start to feel genuine intuition. This is my personal experience: moving from a heavy place to a more coherent state, where the neurons in your heart and head begin to align.

=> 01:00:52

Incorporate heart coherence practices into your life and watch your perceptions shift naturally, leading to deeper connections and lasting peace.

In our daily lives, we often continue to live within our limited patterns and ideas. However, when we start to incorporate a piece of some of these tools around heart coherence, we begin to notice a shift in our baseline. For instance, if you are typically very heady and lack heart connection, you may find that certain situations that once bothered you no longer have the same effect. You might become less reactive and even experience a genuine hit of intuition.

This personal journey often starts from a very heady and linear perspective. Gradually, as you engage with these tools—some of which take only 3 to 10 seconds—you begin to experience different outcomes. This provides proof that these practices work. Many motivational programs tend to be short-lived; for example, you might attend a retreat or conference and return home only to fall back into your negative thinking loop. This cycle feels unnatural and forced, as if you have to summon a kind of fake forced positivity. In contrast, by activating your heart, you can allow your perceptions to change naturally over time.

Reflecting on my own experience with my husband, I realize how different we are. When we first met, I was very much in my heart space, and we felt an immediate connection despite our differences—he’s covered in tattoos and a carnivore, while I’m plant-based. However, after we got married, it became clear that we had significant communication differences. There was a lot of friction, to be honest. I didn't expect that doing this heart work would make such a difference, but as I began to feel more coherent, I noticed that it positively impacted our relationship. Suddenly, we were not fighting as much; there was more peace, humor, and lightness in our interactions.

I’m not asking you to abandon your entire way of being. Instead, I encourage you to spend a little time engaging in these practices and reading through the teachings. Be aware that you have a heart brain and that there are simple tools available to you. As you explore these, you may find that your journey unfolds in unexpected ways.

The heart journey is not linear. While the mind operates like an instruction manual—mapping out career goals, promotions, and financial aspirations—the heart journey often involves pain and letting go of attachments. For example, I had a difficult morning when my younger son went to preschool for the first time. I was in the car, crying, while he confidently waved goodbye. Moments like these can be painful, but they also teach you that you don’t need as much as you think. You may find yourself reflecting on past interactions, realizing how harsh you were with someone, which can bring real pain. Yet, on the other side of that pain lies freedom, lightness, authenticity, and a reduced need for external validation.

Over the last decade of hosting this podcast, my mission has been to engage in what I consider to be critically important conversations about the things that matter most in life. While I am immensely grateful for the growth of this show, I have come to realize that my voice alone is not enough. This mission cannot be a solitary endeavor. Therefore, I sought a way to help amplify other meaningful voices, resulting in Voicing Change Media. This beautiful consortium of thinkers, storytellers, artists, and visionaries is committed to fostering meaningful exchanges, intentionally curated for those on the path of self-discovery. Together, we are creating a space of growth and understanding, where every exchange has the potential to enrich our lives and catalyze profound personal and planetary change.

=> 01:04:59

True happiness and purpose come from within, not just from achievements or helping others. It's about being present and living from the heart.

Engaging in what I consider to be critically important conversations about the things that matter most in life is a priority for me. While I'm immensely grateful for the growth of this show, I've also come to realize that my voice alone is not enough. This mission cannot be a solitary endeavor. Therefore, I wanted to find a way to help amplify other meaningful voices, and the result is Voicing Change Media. This beautiful consortium consists of thinkers, storytellers, artists, and visionaries, all committed to fostering meaningful exchanges. These exchanges are intentionally curated for those committed to the path of self-discovery. Together, we are creating a space of growth, a space of understanding where every exchange has the potential to enrich our lives and catalyze profound personal and planetary change. To learn more, visit voicingchange.media and subscribe.

Another quality of the striver dilemma relates to meaning, purpose, and happiness. We've discussed hormonal balance, immunity, and various physiological shifts that can be achieved through certain practices. However, the broader ambition that we all harbor is to feel more purposeful and to inhabit a space of happiness. One of the conflicts I often entertain as a striver is the notion that things like happiness are luxuries that I may not necessarily need. I can fulfill myself through achieving things that have meaning for others. If I put out enough podcasts, write enough books, and engage in activities that nourish me while also helping others, perhaps that is enough. This keeps me on that habit trail, which can leave me feeling somewhat stuck in a pattern of mentalization.

I often find myself thinking, "maybe I don't really need to be happy because I'm doing this stuff." I don’t say this as someone who is unhappy; rather, I acknowledge that there is a greater feeling of happiness that eludes me. Our society is structured around the idea that achievement and external validation are paramount. We often focus on what we achieve externally rather than what we truly experience internally.

There was a fascinating period in my career before I had children when I worked with numerous celebrities, living with them for several months. It was interesting to observe that, despite their fame, we were all struggling with the same internal divisions. No matter what we say we want, I believe we ultimately desire to feel lighter, more joyful, and more peaceful. However, from the perspective of the propelled heart, we often think the only way to achieve this is through relentless pushing toward achievement or accumulation.

As you open and awaken your heart from both a coherence and energetic perspective, things become more non-specific. For instance, when you step into a clear heart, synchronicities begin to happen because you are operating in a different field. As you let go of attachments naturally—without force—you realize that you don't need to be with a specific person to be happy, nor do you need a particular outcome. Happiness transforms into a more general state; you start to understand that you don't need something outside of yourself to feel love. This love begins to emanate from within you, creating a self-fulfilling experience from the toroidal field of the heart.

As a fellow striver, this concept was completely foreign to me. In my darker heart stages, I would choose partners who were incredibly nice and loving but safe, driven by my fear of abandonment. I was unaware that I was selecting someone who loved me more than I loved them. Now, I recognize that this pattern kept playing out due to my internal fears.

As the heart awakens, the expansion we experience—like the brief practice we engaged in—is profound. It alters our perception entirely. Whatever you currently perceive as purpose and happiness will shift dramatically as you awaken your heart. Purpose becomes less about sending out a podcast to a large audience and more about moment-to-moment living. It transforms into a realization that you have purpose simply because you are alive, awake, and kind in each moment.

=> 01:09:28

True fulfillment comes from within; it's not about what you achieve, but about embracing your own heart and being present in each moment.

In reflecting on past experiences, I realize that I had a tendency to abandon myself in relationships. I often chose partners who loved me more than I loved them. At the time, I couldn't see this pattern, but now I understand why it kept repeating. It's truly amazing how, as the heart awakens, we experience a profound expansion in our perception. The brief practice we engaged in highlighted this shift; it's a different vision and a different perception of purpose and happiness.

As we awaken our hearts, we begin to perceive purpose not merely as a task or a goal, such as sending out a podcast, but as a moment-to-moment living experience. Purpose becomes intrinsic; it’s about being in our hearts, feeling alive, awake, and kind. This contrasts sharply with the mental constructs we often associate with purpose and happiness. Instead of overthinking, we simply embody these feelings. This distinction between the heart and the head is significant. There is a flow and harmony that emerges when we align our heart and brain, moving beyond mere thoughts.

Many people strive to achieve a flow state, often resorting to nootropics and other methods. However, true flow occurs when the heart and brain are genuinely aligned. It’s not about actively thinking about happiness; rather, it’s about being in that state more and more. I can attest to this from my own journey. Having graduated from certain struggles, I recognize that the emptiness in my spirit, often referred to as the Hungry Ghost, cannot be filled by material achievements. I have come to embrace the understanding that meaning, purpose, and happiness are internal experiences, not driven by external factors.

However, the imprinting from childhood runs deep. I grew up in an environment where love and achievement were intertwined. The notion that my deservedness of love was directly correlated with my achievements—like getting good grades or winning competitions—was prevalent. This belief made it challenging to leap into a space where I felt deserving of love simply for being myself.

After years of exploration, I can relate to the feeling of running away from anxiety, even during what seemed like adventurous times, such as backpacking. I was always trying to escape, but the truth is, wherever you go, there you are. Even after writing books and claiming to have healed, I realized that the underlying feelings of inadequacy persisted.

In the past three years, as I delved deeper into my inner self, I discovered that the process of change can be nonlinear. Research on neuroplasticity, particularly the connections between the heart and brain, reveals that transformation is possible. I’ve witnessed clients breaking long-standing patterns, experiencing reduced anger, and making healthier choices. There exists a different intelligence and wisdom that many have yet to tap into, which is both exciting and empowering.

This journey is not just theoretical; it’s evidence-based and experiential. The changes in health and perception are tangible. I’m curious about how these insights resonate with my husband, who, as you mentioned, is quite different from me in many ways.

=> 01:13:46

True transformation comes from within; it’s about finding peace and self-reliance, not just tracking data or following trends.

Over the past decade, I've noticed a significant change in my emotional state; it's like, wow, you're so much less angry. I'm just having a much easier time with my food choices and other aspects of my life. I understand what you mean when you say, "I can't really see outside of that," but I believe there is a different intelligence and a different type of wisdom that we're tapping into here. I would say you've never tapped into it, and I had never tapped into it either. Most people don't know about this stuff, which is why it's so exciting. A, it works; B, it's evidence-based and scientific; and C, it's experiential. Just try it, and you'll start to see how differently your health and perceptions are, along with all these things in your life.

Now, how does this resonate with your husband? You mentioned that he is, in certain ways, very different from you—he's a big, burly man and also a bit of a biohacker, super into all the devices and that kind of stuff. I can relate to that on some level. Anyone who is tethered to all that data feedback might be a little more immune to these sorts of ideas. Does he practice this, or how does this work in your marriage?

He respects it and understands how deeply I am involved in it. To be totally honest, right now, he's not into it; he's not doing the meditations. However, Byron Katie says that when two people are open, but one person is really doing the work, it can be transformative. I am doing the work, and it has changed our communication. He often says, "Wow, this is way better." He acknowledges, "You're doing great; I see a big change in you." Because there's this coherence and calmness, instead of both of us being reactive, it has completely changed the dynamic. One day he may join me, but I'm not going to push him to do it if he doesn't want to.

How do you stay out of your attachment to him doing it, especially since it's been so beneficial for you? Is there not some expectation that he will join you?

Oh my gosh, Rich, thank you for mentioning the word attachment. As I engaged in this work, I was astonished to realize how deeply my whole life was based on attachment. When my kids were born, I didn't have that type of relationship with my mother. She was hustling; she was an immigrant from the Philippines and needed to make money, so she went back to work when I was just two weeks old. With my kids, it was like every waking minute I had to be with them. I was the one taking care of them, working all hours of the night, and there was just this intensity.

Through this work, I've learned to be self-reliant. I can give love and feel connected to my husband, but he is not my everything. Now, I say to him, "I wish you well; it's here if you want it." I feel more peaceful. I'd love to share it with you, but if you don't want it right now, that's okay too.

What about his daily practices? How do they differ from yours?

For him, the sauna is a go-to. We have an ice plunge sauna, and I think the physicality of putting his body in different environments helps soothe his nervous system. He is definitely more into screens, while I am device-free; I'm not even wearing a watch. However, I will say that I am tremendously interested in the actual science behind these practices. It just manifests differently in my life. I take the science and studies and live it, whereas he is someone who tracks everything and likes to see it all the time.

We discussed this beforehand, and I think tracking can be great as long as you maintain a healthy relationship with it. It shouldn't become a tether or a prison that predicts behavior and mindset; it's a tool, not an outcome. If you have an unhealthy relationship with all that data coming in, it might not serve you. I love the devices, but I've had to learn over time to keep them at arm's length a little bit.

You can say, "Oh, I need to sleep better because look at my HRV number," but there's so much more to it. It's richer and, no pun intended, so much more beyond that. We're talking about two minutes of irritation putting into motion 1,500 different biochemical processes. We're discussing how DHA levels can increase when you start to activate heart coherence—these are things that we don't often see in our culture. People focus on wearing a device, buying a supplement, or having a sauna, but on the inside, the energies are moving through us in ways we often overlook.

=> 01:17:56

True wellness is a holistic journey that goes beyond gadgets and quick fixes; it’s about nurturing the mind, body, and spirit to unlock deeper connections and resilience.

The data that's coming in might not be serving you. I love the devices, but I've had to learn over time that you kind of have to keep them at arm's length a little bit. You can say, "Oh, I need to sleep better because look at my HRV number," but there's so much more to consider. It's just so much more rich, and no pun intended, but there is so much more beyond that.

We are talking about two minutes of irritation putting into motion 1500 different biochemical processes. For instance, DHA levels go up when you're starting to activate heart coherence. These are things that we don't see most in our culture. It's like we focus on wearing this device, buying this supplement, or having this sauna, but all the while, on the inside, the energies are moving through—known as emotions and perceptions—affecting all these energies. We often don't want to talk about that; we just want that thing we can go and buy that will fix it for us.

This is a pathway, Rich. This is so profoundly powerful. If you just do some of these heart practices, you start to build a little more coherence. In practical terms, this means less going straight into that stress response and being more resilient against stress. This is one of the most powerful outcomes of this work—just being more centered in your system and wasting less energy. The implications for our fitness levels, longevity, health, and skin health are incredible.

Well, really what it's about is opening up the communication channel so that you start to feel connected with all aspects of who you are. This is a powerful practice, clearly. However, if you're not eating well, not sleeping, and not exercising—essentially not taking care of yourself in all the ways we know we should—this is not going to solve all of your problems. In fact, you won't even be able to open that channel of communication if all these other things are out of balance. From a holistic perspective, this is just a piece in a larger puzzle.

Thank you for bringing that up. Coming into the wellness path as a nutritionist, I have a lot to say about food, the environment, and the things we do in our lifestyle. In each heart chapter, there's actually a practical embodiment section with helpful foods and practices, including elixir drinks and herbs—things you would actually take. It works both ways, right? If you're consuming sugar all day and are jacked up on Adderall or tons of caffeine, it's very hard to go into a state conducive to heart coherence and feeling that clarity and calmness.

On the other hand, when you start to regulate your diet and patterns—like your circadian rhythms, going to bed at the same time and waking up around the same time—it puts you in a better state to go into deeper heart coherence. However, for those who say, "Oh, diet and fitness are everything," this is a big missing piece of the puzzle for many.

We talked about the heart-brain and the head-brain, but there's a third brain, which is the gut-brain. How does the gut-brain interact with these other two brains? It is essential as well. There’s a section in the Propelled Heart that discusses a very somatic practice, which is research-based. When you connect your heart and your gut, you start to sync up the rhythms and your brain waves so they can work synergistically.

We often hear the idea of a "gut feeling" or that your gut and heart can guide you from a deeper place inside of you. When your vagus nerve and your gut microbiome are healthy and diverse, you are going to be more intuitive. It becomes easier for you to sync up this heart coherence as well. Imagine if you’re not having any fiber, consuming sugar all day, and experiencing bloating problems—this has a very real effect on your heart coherence.

Part of this work involves cleaning up your lifestyle and getting your gut health in check. It’s also about understanding this deeper place where we receive messages and intuitive shifts and guidance. This helps take you out of the overemphasis on just one brain and realize that you have these two other ones.

How do you distinguish what the gut is telling you versus what the heart is telling you? It seems like that’s a subtle differentiation. We often say, "Oh, my heart is saying," or "My heart is telling me to do this," and we interchange that with "my gut.

=> 01:21:55

Your heart and gut are powerful guides; listen to their wisdom beyond just your overthinking mind.

Imagine going back to the food. You're not having any fiber; you're having sugar all day. You have bloating problems, and that does have a very real effect on your heart coherence. So, part of this work involves cleaning up your lifestyle, getting your gut health really in check, and also understanding again this deeper place where we receive these messages and these intuitive shifts and guidance. This perspective helps take you out of the overemphasis on just one brain, allowing you to realize that you have these two other brains.

How do you distinguish what the gut is telling you and what the heart is telling you? It seems like that's a subtle differentiation. For instance, you might say, "Oh, my heart is saying this," or "My gut is telling me to do that." We often interchange these terms, but are they truly interchangeable? The practice in the book suggests that you should forget about distinguishing between heart and gut; instead, focus on what is being communicated from a deeper place inside of you. You can think of your heart and gut as a unit, which is what we do in that practice. Whether you refer to it as your gut or your heart, the key is to move away from a heady, linear perspective.

As you engage in heart coherence, whether you call it from your gut or your heart doesn't matter; it's coming from a deeper place of clarity and higher understanding within you. Some people feel it in their heart, while others might sense it in the lower heart or the top of the gut. The point is to avoid getting too caught up in the headiness of it all. I often feel like the gut is more like a "danger, Will Robinson" sort of feeling; it alerts you when something is not right and prompts you to get away. In contrast, the heart is more about moving in a more attractive direction. The gut often signals a fear or danger response, while the heart represents an attraction response. However, as your heart coherence grows, your heart can also send you messages like, "I don't think it's a good idea to follow that relationship," or "Maybe it's better to separate from this person or situation."

There is a higher intelligence present, with centers that function like very real brains in both the heart and the gut. In "The Propelled Heart," there's a whole section that discusses syncing up these parts of your body with science. I practice this heart-gut unit regularly, focusing on more somatic experiences and responses rather than just the mental patterns you mentioned. If I'm not exhausted at the end of the day, it's often my head telling me that I should be.

As someone who is steeped in ancient traditions, I find it fascinating how various spiritual and religious teachings emphasize being heart-centered. For instance, in Egyptian culture, they did not remove the heart from the mummy, as it was deemed necessary for navigation in the afterlife. Growing up Catholic, I often felt disconnected from the church; parts of it felt cold. However, when you delve into the true teachings of Jesus in the Bible, you find profound messages. My Filipino aunt had an image of the flaming heart of Jesus next to her bed, which emanated warmth and love. This connects to the idea of "the peace that passeth all understanding," which transcends rational thought.

The teachings encourage us to "do unto others as you would have done unto you," moving away from a zero-sum game mentality. In our competitive society, we often struggle to live by these principles. Yet, these teachings reveal a loving way of being. When examining Hinduism, for instance, the story of Hanuman illustrates this beautifully. As he prepares to rescue the princess Sita, who has been taken by the demon Ravana, he initially doubts his abilities, thinking, "I'm just a monkey." However, the king of the wind reminds him to "wake up and remember who you really are." This realization empowers him, leading him to light his tail on fire and create smoke around the palace, ultimately aiding in his mission.

=> 01:26:07

Awakening to our true selves and embracing love over separation is the key to transforming society.

The teachings we encounter reveal a profound loving unity, emphasizing the importance of connection in a world rife with separation. In Hinduism, for instance, the story of Hanuman illustrates this beautifully. When Hanuman is tasked with rescuing the princess Sita, who has been captured by the demon Ravana, he initially doubts his abilities, thinking, "I'm just a monkey, I'm not going to do anything." However, the king of the wind inspires him with a mantra, urging him to "wake up and remember who you really are." This awakening leads Hanuman to light his tail on fire, creating smoke that allows him to infiltrate the palace and rescue Sita.

Upon returning to the court, Hanuman is presented with an emerald ring. In a moment of humility, he bites the ring, prompting confusion among the court members. They wonder why he doesn't seem to appreciate the gift. In response, Hanuman opens his chest to reveal either the face of Sita and Rama or the Sanskrit syllables "rah rah rah." This act signifies that he does not seek recognition; rather, he is devoted to his service, embodying the essence of selflessness. This resonates with a quote from Gandhi, who said, "There’s a force moving through me that doesn’t need to be recognized by others."

Reflecting on these teachings, it becomes evident that as we cultivate heart awareness, we naturally become less selfish, more compassionate, and more service-oriented. We begin to ask ourselves, "How can I help?" rather than focusing on our own needs and attachments. Imagine if each of us started to awaken to our hearts more profoundly; the resonance created would ripple through our families, friends, workplaces, and communities.

The significance of the heart is emphasized in various spiritual texts. For example, the word for heart is mentioned 132 times in the Quran, and it appears throughout the Torah and the Heart Sutra in Buddhism. These texts highlight how the ego has fostered separation, creating divisions such as "me versus you" and "this group versus that group." However, the heart has the capacity to forge unity. On an individual level, we can enhance our emotional intelligence and communication, seeking collaboration rather than conflict.

Given the consistency of these messages across numerous traditions and religious texts, it is intriguing to consider how we have strayed from their core teachings. In the book "The Holy Science," the author Shik Jar outlines historical timelines, indicating that we may currently be experiencing a Dark Age, characterized by disconnection from the heart. This disconnection can lead to harm against one another and against nature. However, he posits that these cycles are natural and have occurred throughout history, particularly during times of war.

The hopeful aspect is that as more individuals awaken to higher heart stages, we can usher in a new age known as Satya Yuga, characterized by truth, oneness, less violence, and greater peace. Although it may seem daunting to effect change in the face of troubling news and political strife, each of us has the power to contribute to a collective shift. Every heart matters in this transformation; it is not solely dependent on a few enlightened figures like Buddha or Jesus. Instead, the awakening of all hearts is essential to creating this profound change.

=> 01:30:16

Change the world by changing yourself; every small act of heart-based living creates a ripple of transformation.

Different times have led to various perspectives, but what he does say is that the more of us that start to awaken into the higher heart stages, it ushers in a new age called the Satya Yuga. This new age is characterized by more truth, more Oneness, less violence, and more peace. I believe that what plays out are these cycles in time that have been written about in ancient texts.

What's exciting, Rich, is that sometimes we see the news and what's going on around the world, or the politics, and we think, "I can't do anything." However, we can. Each of us contributes to this field; all hearts intersect. Each of us can put energy into the whole, and the more of us that awaken, the more significant the shift will be. It’s not going to take just one person; it won’t just be when Buddha or Jesus came down. Everyone's heart is needed to create this shift and change, which I believe is truly possible—one heart at a time.

The only way to change anything, let alone change the world, is to change yourself, and that is the only thing we have domain over anyway. There’s another part of the book where a reporter asked Mother Teresa, while he was in Stockholm going between Rome and India, "Mother, what has changed after all these years and so much effort? You are 70 now; soon you will die." He said this in a nicer way, "Soon you'll pass, and not much will have changed. Why so much effort?" Mother Teresa looked at the reporter and said, "I never wanted to change the world; I just wanted to be a drop that reflected God's love." Does that seem like a small thing to you?

We should never miss an opportunity to serve. This doesn’t necessarily mean spending your whole summer volunteering on the Appalachian Trail; rather, it’s about heart-based living moment to moment. We must ask ourselves, "How am I in my head or in my heart in this moment? Am I connected, or am I treating this person in front of me like a lifeless interaction? Am I thinking, or am I really listening to you right now? Am I being kind, or am I too stuck in my ego-based perceptions?"

This gives us a lot to think about. In your estimation, where should I begin? What should I do?

I think you need to feel. I say this from my heart. I have written eight books, but I don’t have the same motivations; I’m not trying to just sell things. However, this book, The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts, synthesizes these teachings, this science, and these tools that I truly believe everyone should have access to. The tracks are on my website, and they’re free. This is a great place to start to understand some of the science and how the heart-brain works. The tools are really simple; you don’t have to spend hours meditating. You can practice for less than eight minutes, and some of these practices can be done in less than a minute.

I think that’s a great place to start to understand that there’s a different reality beyond the headiness of pushing, stressing myself out, and overworking myself. Many people feel they haven’t done anything unless they are exhausted.

What do you say to the person for whom this lands or is interpreted as somewhat indulgent? I imagine someone who is working really hard, maybe has two or even three jobs just to pay the bills, and has a bunch of kids at home. They might feel like there’s just no bandwidth for this type of quote-unquote luxury because just getting through the day is all they can handle.

This isn’t just a nice add-on; the heart work changes your stress levels. It changes your ability to connect more deeply with your family. This will change your vitality and allow you to feel more lightness and spaciousness. You can practice a little bit here and there. As I mentioned, these heart shifts and breaths can take only 3 to 10 seconds. For instance, while washing the dishes, I come back feeling proud of who I am as a mother. The way I speak to my children is very centered, and I feel more confident from that. I have more energy to get my work done.

If you’re working night shifts and juggling three different jobs, this will help you find more ease in your life. I understand; I’ve been there. I’ve hustled, and there were times when I couldn’t pay the rent while living in New York City. I felt the weight of that arduousness. If I could go back and tell myself, "It doesn’t have to feel like this," I would.

=> 01:34:29

Unlock the incredible power within you—it's your birthright to live with ease, confidence, and connection.

In our conversation today, we explored the themes of lightness and spaciousness in life. You can practice these concepts a little bit here and there. For example, I often engage in heart shifts and focus on my breath for just 3 to 10 seconds while doing mundane tasks like washing the dishes. This practice allows me to return to my daily responsibilities feeling proud of who I am as a mother. The way I speak to my children has become very centered, and I find that I feel more confident and have more energy to accomplish my work.

If you are working night shifts or juggling multiple jobs, these practices can help you discover more ease in your life. I understand the challenges; I’ve been there myself. There were times when I struggled to pay rent while living in New York City, feeling the arduousness of life. If I could go back, I would tell my past self that it doesn't have to feel like an uphill battle all the time. It’s truly amazing how a few small changes can make a difference.

Importantly, we're not talking about a huge time commitment. You don’t need any gadgets or devices to implement these practices. As someone who has been in the wellness field for a long time, I often bristle at the notion that wellness is a luxury item to be purchased. This perspective can alienate those who cannot afford expensive retreats or green juices. Instead, we should focus on the core practices that can significantly impact how we inhabit our bodies and minds.

One of the core teachings of yoga Nanda and Shuk Dwar is that all hearts are equal; we simply have different journeys. We all possess an incredible power—let’s call it a technology or a gateway—that we can start to unlock. This understanding flattens the field; it’s not about affording a retreat or any other luxury.

In closing, I want to emphasize that there is incredible power inside each of us. We can learn to unlock this power and benefit from it on physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual levels. I am grateful to have discovered this knowledge, which I wish I had known 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. I want everyone to realize that this wisdom is available to each of us; I believe it is the birthright of all humanity.

Science is increasingly showing us that this power exists within us, and spiritual teachings have always pointed to this truth. We are at a critical age where we must awaken to a different way of living before we implode with stress and separation. All of our hearts are needed right now.

I appreciate the opportunity to share these insights today. Thank you for allowing me to express this. I am committed to practicing these principles in my life, as I certainly need more of this.

For those interested in learning more, my book, The Hidden Power of the Five Hearts, is available everywhere. You can visit my website at mysaluna.com or follow me on Instagram at _KimberlySnider.

Thank you once again for this beautiful conversation.