The New Science Of Longevity, Resilience & Breaking Bad Habits - Dr Andrew Huberman (4K)

Adenosine builds up while you're awake, making you feel sleepy; caffeine blocks it, but when caffeine wears off, the accumulated adenosine hits you harder.

There's been a lot of controversy over the last few months. The Internet's been ablaze with speculation. I think it's important to get it up top: what is happening with the state of the adenosine system research? Within the first 90 minutes of the day, adenosine is an incredibly interesting molecule. It exists in the brain and body and accumulates with the number of hours that you're awake. So, the longer you're awake, the more adenosine accumulates. It does many things in the brain and body. One of the most important things that it does is to give us the subjective experience of feeling sleepy and the objective feeling of our body being fatigued, of feeling literally heavier, requiring more energy to move ourselves.

When we sleep and allow ourselves to go into states of deep rest that are similar to sleep, the adenosine system is adjusting so that there's less effective adenosine circulating or bound to adenosine receptors. This is sort of adenosine 101. There's a lot more to it, but that's sufficient for what we need to talk about for now. The most commonly used drug, the drug we're using now and that we're on right now, caffeine, which is consumed by an estimated more than 90% of the world's adult population, effectively works by blocking the adenosine receptor. There's some nuance there, but we can think of it that way for simplicity's sake. In doing so, it prevents the sleepiness-inducing actions of adenosine. However, when caffeine wears off, the adenosine that was around trying to bind to those receptors is still around. In fact, it's accumulated even more, which at least partially explains the so-called caffeine crash or the dip in energy, the fatigue that we experience maybe 3 or 4 hours after consuming caffeine.

As I mentioned before, when we go to sleep at night, adenosine is cleared from our system. There was a lot of debate over the years about why we sleep. In fact, the great Matt Walker wrote the book "Why We Sleep," and a lot of that has to do with the cell biology of regulating potassium and other ions that are in neurons. For those interested in the cell biology, it's about readjusting the amount of potassium inside and outside the cells, which is happening on an ongoing basis. You can think of the time that we sleep as doing many things, but one of the most important things is to bring those adenosine levels down. Whatever adenosine has accumulated, sleep brings it back down such that when we wake up in the morning, we feel alert.

There are a lot of reasons why we feel alert. Some of them we can call pro-alertness mechanisms, like the release of cortisol. Some of them are about removing the brake on wakefulness, like reducing adenosine. Here, we're talking about removing the brake on wakefulness by reducing adenosine. Let's say, what time do you go to sleep at night typically? If you had your way, 10 o'clock. And what time do you typically wake up feeling great with no alarm clock? 6:30, 6:45. Great. So, let's say you go to sleep at 10:30 and wake up at your usual time. Chances are you will have cleared a lot but not all the adenosine that's required for you to wake up feeling very alert.

Let's say you stay up a little bit later, maybe until 11:00. Maybe you wake up twice that night to use the restroom for whatever reason—you consumed a bit more fluid. Maybe it takes an extra 10 minutes for you to fall back asleep the second time. Then you wake up in the morning, and you didn't get the total amount of deep sleep and rapid eye movement sleep that you're used to getting. Without question, your levels of adenosine upon waking are going to be slightly higher than they normally would be. Once you understand what adenosine does, you think about that scenario; it's kind of an obvious thing. However, most people don't sleep until they naturally wake up feeling refreshed. Most people are using an alarm clock, not going to sleep as early as they need to, or sleeping as late as they need to, or both. As a consequence, when you wake up in the morning, your adenosine levels are not zeroed out to the place where you would be maximally awake. There is some residual adenosine present.

What do people typically do? Typically, people get out of bed, might look at their phone. As you know, I encourage them to go find sunlight. If the sun isn't out, turn on bright lights and then get outside and get sunlight in their eyes as soon as they can. But chances are, they're going to grab some caffeine. They're going to pour themselves a cup of coffee, or if you're me, yerba mate. They might have an energy drink—all fine and good, but...

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Delay your morning caffeine by 60-90 minutes to avoid the afternoon energy crash.

Most people are using an alarm clock and are not going to sleep as early as they need to or sleeping as late as they need to, or both. As a consequence, when you wake up in the morning, your adenosine levels are not zeroed out to the place where you would be maximally awake. There is some residual adenosine present. What do people typically do? Typically, people get out of bed, might look at their phone, and as you know, I encourage them to go find sunlight. If the sun isn't out, turn on bright lights and then get outside and get sunlight in their eyes as soon as they can. But chances are, they're going to grab some caffeine, pour themselves a cup of coffee, or perhaps have an energy drink. All fine and good, but now think about what we just said: what you're doing then is blocking the adenosine receptors. Whatever residual adenosine was there because you didn't sleep enough to clear it out persists, plus you're now starting to accumulate more adenosine. By mid-morning, that adenosine has accumulated, the caffeine has worn off, and maybe by early afternoon, especially after a meal, many people experience an afternoon crash in energy, typically between 1 p.m. and 4 p.m. For me, the trough in my natural energy levels in the afternoon is consistently between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m., regardless of how well I slept the night before. Many people also find a consistently placed trough in their energy independent of all this.

So, what can we do? Some years back, I started suggesting that people consider, if they have an afternoon crash in energy, that they delay their morning caffeine intake for 90 minutes after waking. Some years after that, an academic review was published saying there's really no evidence that this specific practice is necessary, but I still think and stand by the fact that it can be very useful for those that experience an afternoon crash. Why? Well, two things: first of all, by delaying caffeine for the first 60 to 90 minutes after waking, there's an interesting phenomenon whereby even though you are out of bed and walking around, you're not asleep. If you don't block those adenosine receptors, there's still clearance of adenosine occurring in part because of residual rest; you're sort of still asleep.

Another thing that works remarkably well to clear out residual adenosine is upon waking, if you don't feel rested enough, to do something I've talked a lot about, which is another one of these zero-cost tools that has a growing amount of impressive science to support it: non-sleep deep rest (NSDR), also called Yoga Nidra, which is its proper name. The ancient practice is Yoga Nidra, so we want to be fair to its proper naming. A 10, 20, or 30-minute Yoga Nidra or NSDR, if you prefer, done upon waking but before getting out of bed, or maybe you go into the living room and put on your headphones or listen to an NSDR script (they're available all over the Internet, done by me, done by a woman named Kelly Boy who has a really lovely voice, if you prefer a woman's voice—it's actually the one I typically use), you will emerge from that feeling much more rested.

Now, Dr. Matt Walker himself and I are collaborating on a project to evaluate how NSDR impacts brain states to see if it actually mimics sleep. There are some beautiful studies already published out of Scandinavia showing that longer Yoga Nidra-type practices, non-sleep deep rest, can replenish dopamine stores in an area of the brain called the basal ganglia, which prepares you for mental and physical action. This is a very well-established tool from the sort of yogic perspective. It's a tool that's gaining increasing scientific evidence, and for everybody I know that has tried this and reports back to me about it, it's a remarkably energetically replenishing exercise that requires no payment, no nothing—just 10, 20, or 30 minutes of NSDR.

What could be happening in that state? In that state, the body is still, the mind is active, which mimics very closely rapid eye movement sleep. The test that Matt Walker and I are doing with the experiment is to see if having your body completely still but your mind active is able to clear adenosine stores in the same way that being deeply asleep does. My guess is that it's not the same, but that it might be a midway effect. That's the hypothesis; we could be wrong. I look forward to seeing the results. So, by delaying your caffeine for the first 60 to 90 minutes after waking but making sure that you hydrate and get your electrolytes, you are clearing out adenosine more effectively.

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Kickstart your day by getting bright light in your eyes right after waking up to boost energy, mood, and alertness naturally!

Exercise that requires no payment, no nothing, just 10, 20, or 30 minutes of NSDR. Now, what could be happening in that state? In that state, the body is still, and the mind is active, which mimics very closely rapid eye movement sleep. The test that Matt Walker and I are doing with the experiment is to see if having your body completely still but your mind active is able to clear adenosine stores in the same way that being deeply asleep does. My guess is that it's not the same, but that it might be a Midway effect. That's the hypothesis; we could be wrong. I look forward to seeing the results.

By delaying your caffeine intake for the first 60 to 90 minutes after waking but making sure that you hydrate and get your electrolytes—something like Element, which we both enjoy and make good use of—you are clearing out the adenosine that is residual in your system. Now, why do I also keep harping on this idea of going out and getting bright light in your eyes? Ideally, sunlight, but especially on cloudy days, if it's not out yet, you can turn on bright lights. When one does that, you actually amplify the naturally occurring peak in cortisol that occurs soon after waking. About 30 minutes before waking, your cortisol starts to rise; it's part of the mechanism that wakes you up without an alarm clock. As soon as you get out of bed and start moving around, that cortisol increases further. Your body temperature, by the way, is increasing in parallel.

When you view bright light—and these are very well-established studies in humans as well as animal models—but in humans, when you view bright light, 10,000 Lux indoor light if you're using a Seasonal Affective Disorder treatment lamp or getting outside even on a cloudy day and looking toward the sun, looking East in the morning without sunglasses (eyeglasses and contacts are fine), you induce a near 50% increase in the height of that cortisol peak. That might sound like a bad thing because everyone's afraid of cortisol, but that's not a bad thing. It prepares you for a day where your immune system is bolstered, your energy and alertness are bolstered, and your ability to learn and your mood are bolstered.

In addition to that, there are interactions between light and the adenosine system. Light impacts the functional availability of the adenosine receptor in very interesting ways. Bright light increases the height of that cortisol peak, and then the cortisol peak also helps to counteract the adenosine system. When you get sleepy at night, part of that effect is due to the increase in melatonin, which is released from the pineal gland, a small gland deep in the vestiges of your brain. When you view bright light at night or during the day, especially in the morning, it quashes those melatonin levels.

So, when you wake up in the morning and you haven't slept enough, or even if you have, your adenosine levels are still not at zero, your melatonin levels are still not at zero, and your cortisol is rising. You've got a pro-wakefulness system (cortisol) that you can accelerate or amplify by viewing bright light. You've got an anti-wakefulness system in the form of melatonin and adenosine that are pushing back on your wakefulness, leaving you in a kind of grogginess. You can further suppress those systems without caffeine by viewing bright light. Viewing bright light both increases the pro-wakefulness systems in the brain and body and suppresses the anti-wakefulness systems in the brain and body, both pushing down on the accelerator of wakefulness, mood, and alertness and reducing the brake.

Otherwise, you're sort of trying to drive with the emergency brake on. Then, if 60 to 90 minutes later you ingest caffeine, now you're blocking the adenosine receptor. Sure, that's fine. I love caffeine; I certainly drink a lot of caffeine and enjoy it for all its effects. You're now in a position where the arc of your wakefulness is going to be in nice concert with the also increasing adenosine that's naturally going to accumulate throughout the day. Again, there's no requirement to delay your caffeine 60 to 90 minutes after waking, but for people that experience a marked afternoon crash, it's an incredibly effective way to offset partially or eliminate that afternoon crash. That's pretty much everybody; who doesn't get tired in the middle of the afternoon? I'll tell you what, Jocko Willink doesn't get tired, period, ever. Do you think he's got that genetic mutation? I don't know. You know, I went down to visit him after his podcast. I actually did a sauna session with his family and some of their family friends.

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Delay your caffeine intake by 60-90 minutes after waking to avoid the afternoon crash and boost your energy throughout the day.

Caffeine can be enjoyed for all its effects, and when consumed, it aligns well with the natural Arc of your wakefulness. This is complemented by the increase in adenosine that accumulates throughout the day. Although there is no strict requirement to delay your caffeine intake by 60 to 90 minutes after waking, for those who experience a marked afternoon crash, this delay can be an incredibly effective way to offset or eliminate that crash. This is a common issue, as almost everyone feels tired in the middle of the afternoon.

Jocko Willink is an exception; he seems to never get tired. There’s speculation that he might have a genetic mutation that allows him to sustain high energy levels. After his podcast, I visited him and participated in a sauna session with his family and friends. They had heard about my increased heat tolerance, although I don’t recommend pushing the heat unless you’re very heat-adapted. I’m not great with the cold, keeping my cold plunge at about 48-45 degrees, while others, like Lex, who is Russian, are naturally cold-adapted.

In terms of heat, I’m quite tolerant and have been cranking my traditional sauna to about 210-220 degrees. During my visit, Jocko challenged me to his "factory reset protocol", which involves 30 minutes at 225 degrees. It was brutal, especially with eight or nine people in the sauna, making it even hotter. I was the only one on the floor while others laughed at me. The protocol also includes a five-minute cold plunge, repeated three times. I managed one round and don’t recommend it unless you’re heat-conditioned, as it can cause brain damage. For those who don’t know, using a towel or a hat can insulate your brain, allowing you to stay in the heat longer.

Jocko is incredibly tough and battle-tested. After our sauna session, a four-hour podcast, and dinner, he still had the energy to attend a concert starting at 10 PM. The next morning, he posted his watch, showcasing his relentless energy. It’s remarkable how he either has more energy or forces himself to ignore fatigue. There is a rare genetic mutation that allows some people to function on three to five hours of sleep, likely due to fast adenosine clearance systems or lower adenosine accumulation.

The comments about Jocko on YouTube are amusing, likening him to Chuck Norris with phrases like, "When Jocko was born, the doctor said, 'It’s a man,'" and "When he does a push-up, he pushes the world away." These comments highlight his legendary status. People selected for elite teams often have the ability to cognitively and physically push aside fatigue. However, most people need 6 to 8 hours of sleep per night, unless they are growing teens or battling an illness. If you suddenly feel incredibly tired earlier than usual, it might be a sign that you’re battling something and should go to sleep.

Personally, I need about six to eight hours of sleep, though I rarely get nine. When I do, I feel like a superhuman. Typically, I get about seven hours and incorporate 10 to 20 minutes of non-sleep deep rest (NSDR). On the drive over here, I did a 10-minute NSDR session.

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How you sleep reveals more about your life than how you say you feel.

Teams excel in part through their ability to cognitively and physically push aside fatigue. For most people, six to eight hours of sleep per night is necessary, unless they are in their growing teen years or battling some illness. If you are accustomed to going to sleep at 10 p.m. and suddenly feel incredibly tired at 7 p.m., you are probably battling something and should go to sleep. Personally, I need about six to eight hours of sleep, but the other night I got nine hours and felt like a superhuman. Typically, I get about seven hours of sleep and supplement it with a 10 to 20-minute non-sleep deep rest. On the drive over here, I did a 10-minute non-sleep deep rest.

Have you ever seen that meme depicting different hours of sleep with a face of a guy? It humorously and accurately represents how it feels: zero hours and one hour of sleep make the face look like it's falling off, six hours still looks bad, seven hours is slightly better, and eight hours is great. Interestingly, two hours of sleep makes the face look superhuman. This might be due to the 90-minute sleep cycle alignment, allowing you to feel somewhat refreshed even with minimal sleep. However, if you sleep only two hours, you know you are in war mode and will likely experience a crash later.

Considering the team's guys, someone who sleeps just two hours occasionally and feels great might become hyperverbal—a mild form of mania—before crashing. Rapid eye movement (REM) sleep is critical for removing the emotional load of the previous day's memories and experiences. Interestingly, REM sleep has also been used as a clinical treatment for depression, even though one of the primary symptoms of depression is waking up early and being unable to fall back asleep. There is a mystery in the relationship between sleep and mood, but on average, most people need six to eight hours of sleep, plus or minus two hours, depending on age and life circumstances.

If you stay up all night or get only two hours of sleep, you will likely experience hypomania, talking a lot and feeling energetic before crashing. I have tracked my sleep for a decade using the Sleep Cycle app, which is fantastic, especially if you are on the road. The app automatically triggers recordings when you begin to snore or speak in your sleep, storing them on the cloud. A well-known podcaster and previous guest of this show has entire debates in his sleep, which are hilarious. Over a decade, I have averaged about six hours and 45 minutes of active sleep, though as a former club promoter, it was closer to six hours, and now it's around seven and a half hours.

One of my favorite tweets is, "Don't ask people how they are doing; ask how they are sleeping. You'll learn a lot more." This question provides a window into their recent experiences and how they are integrating them. The mighty Rick Rubin always asks, "How are you feeling?" which I love because it forces you to think and respond thoughtfully.

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Ask people how they are sleeping instead of how they are doing; it reveals so much more about their well-being.

It's probably around 6 and now 7:30, so I'm kind of splitting the difference from my previous life to my new one. One of my favorite tweets from you is, "Don't ask people how they are doing; ask how they are sleeping. You'll learn a lot more." This gives you a window into what's really going on for them because we have this throwaway response to "How are you doing?" like "I'm okay," "I'm great," or "Yeah, I'm fine." When you ask how people are sleeping, it speaks to a bunch of previous day and week experiences and how they're integrating all that.

The mighty Rick Rubin always asks, "How are you feeling?" which I really love. I'll get these texts like, "How are you feeling?" and I'm like, "That's interesting," and I start responding. It forces you to think a little bit. When we are emotionally troubled, we sleep less well, obviously. I feel like there are a lot of us, myself included, that would like to just take a long nap until after this upcoming election—a three-month nap. It's really important to see what's going on back and forth, but sometimes it just feels so emotionally distracting.

I definitely chart my sleep. I use the tracker inside of Eight Sleep. Have you got that new thing that lifts your head up? I do because I have a snoring issue. I didn't know I had a snoring issue. It's not terrible, but I didn't know I had a snoring issue until I started using the nose strips. That helps me, but then I made the mistake of taking one of those off far too quickly and had a nice linear-sized strip remove my nose. They can help because it reduced the percentage of my night that I was snoring from something like 22% down to 11%, based on what the Eight Sleep report was. Now, with the new Eight Sleep, it tilts you up, and that really helps.

Intake makes great nose strips. There's a hard piece of plastic, a molded piece of plastic, and then you put two magnets on either side of your nose, pulling your nostrils. This locks you in. Alex Hosi, who has two deviated septums, always wears that. He can't breathe very well without it—one is 100% blocked and the other is something else. He's found some other thing that goes inside your nose and opens it out from there. He says he can only use it two nights in a row, or else it starts to cut away at the inner lining of his nose, but those two nights are really good breathing.

Getting a lot of oxygen to your brain during sleep is part of the optimal sleep routine. Sometimes, the number of different things one needs—earplugs, eye masks, nose aids—can get to be a bit much. Whenever I'm on the road, the most important thing for me in hotels is to try and get a hotel where the window faces East in the morning and the window opens. I have this weird kind of morning anxiety if I can't get fresh air. You can always go downstairs and go outside, but the little things make a big difference. This is one of the dreadful things about being on a plane for many hours: you can't open the window, it's all the short wavelength light, the blue light, and then you're in an airport, then you're in an Uber. You really think about just how unhealthy that is.

As I turn 49 next month, I feel pretty good. I probably haven't been getting as much sleep as I should have this last year, but getting more fresh air—just that simple thing—has made an enormous difference in my nighttime sleep. It's the sort of advice that your mom would have given you: just get more fresh air. She used to kick us out of the house. We'd come home, watch cartoons or something, and then she'd say, "Alright, you're leaving. I'm kicking you out," for her own peace of mind.

Traveling should be about the journey, not the chaos of packing, which is why I have been using the Nomatic backpack and carry-on Pro for over a year now. This thing is the best backpack on the planet. I did an entire month on tour with just hand luggage alone. It's like the Swiss army knife of travel packs. It's got pockets for your laptop, your clothes, your snacks. It is so well organized that even your toothbrush feels important. The amount of thought that they've put into every pouch and zipper is incredible. It's beautifully designed, not over-engineered, and it will literally last you a lifetime with that lifetime guarantee.

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Traveling should be about the journey, not the chaos of packing—Nomatic backpacks make it effortless.

Just sort of related to what we've spoken about there, how can people become a morning person or learn to get up early more easily and more regularly? Three days of pain, the rest is easy. It takes about three days to shift the biological mechanisms to make you a morning person. Now, if you are a very strongly genetically determined night owl, that's a thing. There are genetic mutations, called polymorphisms, that make some people night owls. They feel best psychologically and physically going to sleep at about 1:00, 2:00, or 3:00 a.m. and waking up somewhere around 10:00, 11:00 a.m., or noon. That exists not just during development or teen years but also for social reasons. Other people are true morning people; they feel absolutely best going to sleep around 8:00 p.m. or 9:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. would be late for them, and they feel great waking up at 4:00, 5:00, or 6:00 a.m.

Most people feel best going to sleep somewhere between 10:00 p.m. and midnight and waking up somewhere between 6:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m., maybe 5:30 to 8:00 a.m. Those are three bins: the night owl, the morning person, and the more typical schedule. But it's heavily weighted toward that typical schedule if you look at the general population. If somebody wants to get up earlier, you need to stack the four primary zeitgebers or timekeepers. The number one zeitgeber, the number one way to shift your circadian clock, which is this cluster of neurons that sits a few centimeters above the roof of your mouth, is to view bright light at a time when you want to be awake, aka the morning. That's why I say get outside, look at the sun toward the sun. Don't force yourself to stare at it; don't damage your eyes. Blink as needed. No sunglasses. Eyeglasses, corrective lenses, and contacts are absolutely fine, even if they have UV protection.

If you combine that with another zeitgeber, the second most powerful zeitgeber is exercise or movement. If you do some jumping jacks, skip some rope, or even just take a walk while facing the sun, now you're starting to stack different zeitgebers. If you then also add caffeine, you can entrain, as it's called, the circadian clock to be alert at that time a bit more. I'll be honest, if I'm going to exercise first thing in the morning, I need caffeine. I can't wait that 60 to 90 minutes if I need to jump right into exercise. I find it's easiest for me to do 30 minutes after waking, 3 hours after waking, or 11 hours after waking. A lot of people find the same, but of course, exercise when you can because it's that important. If you want to optimize your energy levels for exercise, typically people will notice that it has to do with your time-temperature rhythm.

So, we've got sunlight, exercise or movement of any kind (it could be jumping jacks, walking, you don't have to do a full workout), and then caffeine. In some cases, food. I'm not big on eating first thing in the morning; I don't like to eat until 11 a.m. or noon. That's when my first meal arrives for me, just naturally. That's when I get hungry.

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To optimize your energy for exercise, align your routine with your circadian rhythm by timing sunlight, exercise, caffeine, and social interactions.

I can't wait the 60 to 90 minutes if I need to jump right into exercise. I find it's easiest for me to do it 30 minutes after waking, 3 hours after waking, or 11 hours after waking. A lot of people find the same, but of course, exercise when you can because it's that important. If you want to "optimize your energy levels for exercise," typically people will notice that it has to do with your time-temperature rhythm.

We've got sunlight, exercise or movement of any kind (it could be jumping jacks, walking, you don't have to do a full workout), caffeine, and in some cases, food. I'm not big on eating first thing in the morning; I don't like to eat until 11 a.m. or noon. That's when my first meal arrives for me naturally; that's when I get hungry. It's all caffeine and hydration prior to that. But if you were to eat something first thing in the morning, that's part of the way you entrain your circadian clock to wake up earlier. The fourth one is a social rhythm. If you're interacting with other people, you're going to entrain your clock to that as well. Yes, there's a social component to circadian entrainment.

The pathways for these are from the eye in the case of viewing light to the circadian clock, the suprachiasmatic nucleus. In the case of caffeine, it's more general. In the case of exercise, there's literally a brain stem to circadian clock connection, a big superhighway of neuronal connection that then so-called entrains your circadian clock. Remember, your circadian clock generates an intrinsic 24-hour rhythm such that if we put you into constant dark or constant light, you would still sleep for a given bout and then be alert for a given bout with a little bit of a nap. It just is what we would call free run; it would drift a little later each day. This is what happens when you go to Vegas or when you're in an environment without a lot of cues about the day, the sunlight rising and setting cycle.

Sunlight, exercise, caffeine, eating, and social interactions bring your circadian clock into alignment with all of those zeitgebers. When I said it takes three days, if tomorrow you want to start becoming an early riser, you'd set your alarm for 5:00 a.m. No matter what time you went to sleep the night before, you're going to get up and do the four things I described. Maybe leave out food if you don't want to eat, maybe leave out caffeine if you want to delay by 90 minutes. It's going to hurt, and by the early afternoon, you'll be dragging a bit. You just have to be careful not to overindulge in caffeine, which will then cause you to fall asleep later than you want. Go to sleep at your now naturally slightly earlier sleep time. The next day, you'll notice it will be a little bit easier to do the morning routine I just described. By the third day, you ought to be waking up with or before the alarm by a few minutes or moments because your circadian clock has phase-shifted.

Your circadian clock intrinsic to you generates a 24.2 or a 24.3-hour rhythm; it's not perfectly 24 hours. We believe, though we don't know for sure, that it's such that you're able to then shift that clock in one or the other direction. You can phase advance (wake up earlier and go to sleep earlier) or phase delay. How do you phase delay? Well, you're probably doing this already. Everyone nowadays pretty much qualifies as a shift worker by the strict and not-so-strict criteria of shift work, which is: Are you doing any kind of cognitive activity after 9:00 p.m.? Are you viewing any kind of bright lights after 9:30 p.m.? Most people would say yes.

The diabolical thing about the circadian timing system is that it requires a lot of bright light, ideally from sunlight, early in the day to make you a morning and daytime person. But it requires just a little bit of bright light, even from an artificial source, after the hours of about 9:30 p.m. till 4:00 a.m. to quash your melatonin, making it difficult to sleep or, if you sleep, making that sleep not as effective. There's a simple remedy, however. A beautiful study published in Science Reports in 2022 found that if you view sunlight in the afternoon, even for five minutes or so (could be late afternoon, could be sunset), take off your sunglasses and look in the direction of the sun (so now looking West), you adjust the sensitivity of your retina, the neurons in the back of your eye, such that bright light later at night doesn't have quite as much effect to suppress melatonin.

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Catch the sunset to help your sleep and enjoy Netflix without the guilt.

Bright light early in the day can help make you a morning and daytime person. However, even a little bit of bright light from an artificial source between the hours of 9:30 p.m. and 4:00 a.m. can quash your melatonin, making it difficult to sleep or making that sleep less effective. There is a simple remedy, as highlighted in a beautiful study published in Science Reports in 2022. If you view sunlight in the afternoon, even for five minutes, whether it's late afternoon or sunset, and look in the direction of the sun without sunglasses, you adjust the sensitivity of your retina. This adjustment reduces the melatonin-suppressive effects of bright light later at night by about 50%.

Viewing sunlight in the afternoon is not only pleasant but also crucial, especially in winter. Even if you can't see the sun directly, getting some sunlight in your eyes can partially offset the effects of bright light at night. This practice can be thought of as a "Netflix inoculation," allowing you to use your phone or watch Netflix at night with less disruption to your sleep, although it will still have some impact. Wearing red lens glasses, as some people like Rick Rubin do, can further mitigate these effects.

To become a morning person, you should expose yourself to bright light early in the day. Conversely, if you want to become a night person, you should view bright light between 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., which will phase delay your circadian clock, making you want to wake up later the next morning.

Dogs and social interaction can also play a role in this process. Taking your dog for a morning walk provides social interaction, movement, and exposure to sunlight, which can help set your circadian rhythm. Dogs have the same mechanisms as humans for circadian entrainment to sunlight, thanks to intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells that project to the circadian clock.

This system of circadian biology is very primordial, evolving from bacteria and present in every extant mammal species. It’s a beautiful system that no one can biohack away. Circadian biology governs our 24-hour fluctuations in energy and focus, and it’s essential for processes like neuroplasticity and adenosine regulation. Sleep, driven by these circadian rhythms, allows the unconscious mind to organize thoughts and experiences in ways we don't fully understand yet, but it’s crucial for our overall well-being.

Thanks to researchers like Matt Walker, we now understand that the mindset of "I'll sleep when I'm dead" is misguided. Sleep is essential, and embracing these natural cycles can significantly improve our quality of life.

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Prioritize sleep and align your daily routine with your natural cognitive and physical rhythms for peak productivity.

I'm obsessed with the idea that in sleep, the conscious mind is not in control, allowing the unconscious mind to geyser up thoughts. The brain organizes things more in terms of symbols, and time and space are organized very differently in dreams. There's a lot of information to be gleaned from dreams, but we don't yet understand what the symbols mean. The classic Freudian and Jungian interpretations are certainly not complete. I'm grateful for sleep, and thanks to the great Matt Walker, we now understand that the mindset of "I'll sleep when I'm dead" is really dumb. My team at The Huberman Lab podcast sometimes jokes that we win by sleeping. When we're in the peak of things, we all encourage each other to get rest and prioritize sleep because it's so essential. One of the best little cliches, which is a generalization but works, is that there's no such thing as being overworked, only under-rested.

We know a lot about the different stages of sleep but less about the different stages of wakefulness. I've recently started embracing my natural cognitive and physical cycles. Ed Mylett thinks of his day as consisting of three days, which is awesome from a productivity standpoint. I noticed that he mentioned these time blocks, and I've adopted a new daily routine based on my observations. From 6 a.m. until noon, my brain and body are very capable of doing certain things more easily than at other times of the 24-hour cycle. I consider this the first phase of my day. The second opportunity block is between noon and 6 p.m., and the third is between 6 p.m. and bedtime, which is typically 10:30 p.m. but sometimes later.

I've realized that I can do really focused work in two but not three of these blocks consistently. If I exercise early in the first block, like between 6 a.m. and before 9 a.m., I have more energy all day long. However, if I exercise starting at 9 or 10, the second opportunity block is diminished. This might be related to when I eat, but changing my eating habits didn't affect this observation. I believe people could benefit tremendously by paying attention to their natural cognitive and physical rhythms.

For instance, today we sat down together at 1 p.m., and I realized I could work before I got here in the early day block or this evening. This morning, I took care of procedural things like posting for our Monday episode, making phone calls, taking a walk, handling emails, and eating some food. On the way here, I did a brief 10-minute NSDR because I didn't sleep as much last night as I would have liked. I walked in feeling great, and although I don't get paid to endorse it, I love this new tonic energy drink. It's really tasty and helps me stay hyped.

I can work in two of these three blocks, and the third one ends up being a mishmash of procedural stuff. Today, the early part of the day, the 6 a.m. to noon block, was handled with non-focused work. I didn't train today because I trained yesterday, and today was a day off. Hopefully, we'll do some Sonic cold tonight. Now, we're working, and I imagine that after 2-3 hours of this, my brain will have expended some serious cognitive effort, and I'll expect a sort of dip.

=> 00:38:44

This new tonic energy drink is a game-changer—keeps me focused and energized all day!

I did not have any kind of arrangement to say this, but this new tonic energy drink, which has an eye on it, has got me hyped. I love it; it tastes so good. With this drink, I can work through two or three blocks, although the third one often ends up being a mishmash of procedural stuff.

Today, the early part of the day, from 6 a.m. to noon, was spent handling non-focused work tasks. I didn't train today because I trained yesterday, and today was a day off. Hopefully, we'll do some Sonic cold tonight. Now, I'm focused on work, and I imagine that after 2-4 hours of this, my brain will have expended some serious cognitive effort. I'll then expect a dip in energy, which I won't force, and later this evening, I'll get some more work done and hopefully engage in some Sonic cold.

I'm very aware that I get two opportunities from these three blocks. My ideal schedule would be to work really hard in the first two blocks, still eat, and train early. This means getting the training done by 8 a.m. at the latest, then engaging in super-focused work, eating something, and continuing with super-focused work in the second block. Maybe I'll do an NSDR (Non-Sleep Deep Rest) to recover my mental and physical vigor. In the evening, it would be social time to relax. I've been watching a lot of documentaries lately.

For instance, I watched an Anthony Bourdain documentary yesterday. I obviously knew who he was; we have friends in common. Sadly, he passed away, taking his own life, which is tragic. Joe Rogan and David Choe, the artist, have talked about him a lot, and he was part of the New York City 70s-80s punk rock scene, which included the Ramones. I'm a huge Ramones fan, and the documentary called "Roadrunner" is very good. It's interesting to see how he was such a sensation seeker.

Have you seen "World War II from the Front Lines"? Netflix has done at least two or three colorized World War II documentaries, and there's also one on World War I. Watching archive footage in color, thanks to a combination of AI and manual recoloring, sharpens the image and brings out the facial expressions and emotions of people, making the story more emotionally connected. I've really been enjoying "World War II from the Front Lines."

I also watched the World War I documentary and read "All Quiet on the Western Front" in school. I'm fascinated by World War I. Documentaries are kind of an obsession for me. I loved the Oliver Sacks documentary and have seen some true crime documentaries recently. Are you a true crime guy? I used to watch that stuff when I was living alone, but it made me paranoid. However, the one about Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, was brilliant and terrifying, especially given his brazen nature in Los Angeles. Another one I just watched called "American Nightmare" is really interesting and harrowing.

Shane Gillis jokes that watching World War II documentaries is a sign of early onset Republicanism. He refers to having an obsession with these documentaries as such, so just keep that in mind. For the last three years, I have started my morning every single day with Element, a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don't.

=> 00:42:47

Watching too many WWII documentaries might turn you into an early-onset Republican.

The brazen nature of his actions is quite striking. Recently, I watched a new documentary called American Nightmare. It's really interesting and harrowing. Shane Gillis humorously warns that having an obsession with World War II documentaries is what he refers to as early onset Republican. He jokes that if you start dreaming about World War II, you might be turning into a Republican. While this is unlikely, I plan to look at it in an unbiased way.

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We are currently in an election year, and as much as you might want to fall asleep for the next three months, the political process is critical. It's been a lot to handle, and many people feel overloaded. The cognitive dissonance of understanding the importance of participating in the future of the country while feeling exhausted by the process is common. I recently hosted a guest who is an expert on the psychology of politics, and we discussed this through a nonpartisan lens, considering our diverse audience.

The intensity of the upcoming election has convinced me that I will never run for office, despite some speculation from friends, family, and occasional calls from reporters. It's not my arena, but it is a very important one. One concern is that the increasing intensity might dissuade young people who genuinely want to serve from running for office. The message that it's impossible to get anything done or that you need to be a certain type of person to be effective is discouraging. This is a terrible message because, in any field, whether it's music, sports, or podcasting, you want a large pool of people funneling into it to discover incredible talents and virtuosos.

To navigate this intense political cycle, it's important to pay attention to what draws attention. According to the political science professor I spoke with, people are often drawn to dominance language. However, dominance language over others is less effective in shifting people's minds than dominance language associated with expressing one's true beliefs. Historically, this has been evident in presidential and other political campaigns.

=> 00:46:59

People trust leaders who genuinely express their true beliefs, not those who just tell them what they want to hear.

You can discover the incredible talents and virtuosos, and that's what you need—a bigger applicant pool to reveal talent and for a field to progress. To navigate this cycle effectively, one should pay careful attention to what draws attention. What I learned from an expert, a political science professor, is that people orient towards a dominance language, but dominance language over others is far less effective in shifting people's minds than dominance language associated with expressing one's true beliefs.

Their argument was that historically, in presidential and other forms of elections, you could predict who was going to win based on who told you what they really think and believe, as opposed to telling people what they want to hear. We have a sensor for when we're being told what people think we want to hear versus what somebody really believes, even if we disagree with them. This probably gets to our origins as an old-world primate species, but we tend to put leaders into office who can communicate what they really believe, either through their words, the timbre of their voice, their gestures, or a combination of these things. It's about redundancy and how often they hammer on a message, as opposed to flip-flopping according to what the polls say or blowing with the wind.

We often think of dominance language as one person dominating another. However, this brilliant political science professor explained that dominance impacts voting at the level of one or the other candidate expressing what they really believe about something in clear terms with conviction and truth. People lose faith in a candidate when that candidate changes their stance without giving a legitimate reason that aligns with their actual beliefs or when they don't address it at all.

My strategy in this current election is to apply a neuroscience, psychology, and science-based lens to what's happening around me. I listen for whether a candidate truly believes what they are saying or if they are merely trying to sway me by talking about the other candidate's beliefs. There is a tendency to orient towards people who feel similar to those we grew up around, but that doesn't ultimately impact voting. There is always a group of people voting against one party, but the undecided group, which Dr. Paul KY refers to as the league of reasonable people, evaluates evidence based on what they see, feel, and hear. This group tries to move away from the silent middle and focuses on whether a candidate feels genuine and truly believes what they are saying.

This is the way I plan to navigate this time. How will this help with psychological health? Even though you'll still be peppered with stories, worries, and concerns, using this approach can provide a more grounded perspective.

=> 00:50:39

People's beliefs are more durably impacted by stories than statistics.

KY, who was on my podcast and is a psychiatrist, talks about the League of Reasonable People. This group is not tied to politics but is composed of individuals who evaluate evidence based on what they see, feel, and hear. They strive to move away from the silent middle, focusing on genuine evaluation of evidence. These people are attentive to whether someone feels genuine, truly believes what they are saying, or is merely telling them what they want to hear. This approach is how I plan to navigate this time.

How will this help with psychological health? Despite being bombarded with stories, worries, and concerns, this method provides a sense of control over the overwhelming flow of information. You can’t stop the fire hose of information, but you can apply a specific filter to focus on what people are saying about issues that matter. This involves paying attention to whether or not they are expressing genuine beliefs. You can disagree and vote against them or support them, but data shows that people ultimately vote for the candidate they believe has the greatest conviction.

As a citizen, not a political scientist, I feel the political discussion lacks a clear picture of the future a candidate envisions. I want a vivid image of the world they imagine, not just surface-level statements. As a scientist and public health communicator, I am constantly scrutinized for the protocols and justifications behind my statements. For example, I suggest delaying caffeine intake 90 minutes after waking to avoid afternoon crashes, even though there isn’t a randomized control trial to support this. I base my advice on mechanisms that support my statement.

Dr. Lane Norton, whom I respect, requires randomized control trials to meet his threshold. I avoid seed oils, preferring olive oil and butter, not because of randomized control trials, but because I feel better without them. I explain my reasons for my beliefs and suggestions, even if they don’t meet the same standards as others. As a scientist and citizen, I want candidates to clearly state their beliefs, rationale, and vision for the future. This transparency builds trust and shows they understand their own process.

Currently, I hear vague aspirational statements and dogmatic language from candidates. I want a clear, detailed list of their protocols for improving the country. This is my threshold, though not enough to run for office myself. A recent study, "Stories Don't Care About Your Statistics," reveals that stories have a more durable impact on beliefs than statistics. The average impact of statistics on beliefs fades by 73% over a day, while the impact of a story fades by only 32%. This has huge implications for how beliefs are formed and maintained.

=> 00:54:16

Stories stick with us longer than statistics, shaping beliefs more effectively.

Dogmatic language on the other side is also pretty vague, and so I want to know—I want a list. Send me the one-page PDF. I want to know what your protocols are for making this a better country. I think that's my threshold. I do get worked up about this, but not enough to run for office.

I found this really interesting study that's been done recently: stories don't care about your statistics. In controlled experiments, research has documented a pronounced story-statistic gap in memory. The average impact of statistics on beliefs fades by 73% over the course of a day, while the impact of a story fades by only 32%. So, in short, people's beliefs are more durably impacted by stories than statistics. This has huge implications for how voters' beliefs can be more easily swayed during the upcoming elections.

Part of the reason I love you is that you have an unbelievable ability to find relevant studies that I would never find. Here's why I believe stories are more impactful than just citing statistics: the brain organizes memories of all kinds in beginning, middle, and end. A graph has a structure but doesn't really have a beginning, middle, and end. Now, it can be a time course plot, and there are all sorts of caveats to this. The scientist in me always has to mention all the caveats. But from the time we are little children, we organize things in terms of beginning, middle, and end. The best example of this is the ABCs. When you learn the ABCs, you don’t do ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. For a moment there, I was worried I wouldn't remember, but so far so good. And I've been drinking my nootropic.

How do children learn the ABCs? The brain is learning the inflections, the prosody—the rise and fall of voice. We know that this is one of the ways we organize information. My friends who are world-class musicians who sing, I always say, "I remember lyrics really well," and they go, "Oh, I can't remember." Then they'll start with the first line, and all of a sudden, they remember the whole song sequence. That's the way memories are organized; they sort of peel back. Some people are very good at memorizing lists where acronyms can help, but in general, we sequence our life on the basis of a beginning-middle-end type structure.

Now, the exception to this would be flashbulb memories. For instance, about a month ago, one of the presidential candidates had an assassination attempt on his life. I think that was the first time since 9/11 that I recall everyone in the country being tuned into the same event online. There may have been intervening things, but it was wild. There was an earthquake this morning in Los Angeles. Did you feel it? I was busy preparing and had my AirPods in. Everybody else went, "That was a little one." I grew up in California; this one was kind of a ripple, not a rumble. Usually, if it's a bigger one, you'll hear it like a train coming through the environment. In any case, not a flashbulb memory, but you remember what you were doing.

A few weeks ago, during that assassination attempt, we had a flashbulb memory. I can recall it was a Saturday. I was sitting on the couch, my girlfriend and I were talking, and then all of a sudden, I was like, "Oh my goodness." She's like, "No, oh my goodness." All of a sudden, we're on our phones. Flashbulb memories are an exception to what we're talking about, and they grab all the context around them. I remember when my mom picked me up on 9/11 from school and listening to it on the radio. My memory, I know yours—I really want to get into this later on—you have a very self-identified very good memory of life experiences going quite a way back into your youth. For better or worse, I'm the opposite, but I remember that one flashbulb memory, like you, a big important event.

The story thing is so interesting. By the way, the origin of flashbulb memory is adrenaline. It's adrenaline released from the adrenals and in the locus coeruleus, sort of a "quote-unquote" alertness center. Although my neuroscience colleagues will be like, "There he goes, calling brain structures by their function," but you know it releases...

=> 00:57:54

Adrenaline spikes lock intense memories into our brains, making us remember significant events vividly.

I remember the events of 9/11 vividly, as I was at school and listening to it on the radio. My memory of that day is quite clear, which contrasts with my usual recollection of life experiences. This brings us to the concept of flashbulb memory, which is fascinating. Flashbulb memories are often linked to adrenaline, released from the adrenals and the locus ceruleus, sometimes referred to as the "alertness center." This adrenaline release causes a sprinkling of epinephrine into the brain, enhancing memory retention.

James McGaugh, a leading researcher in memory, has reviewed this extensively. Historically, during Medieval times, to ensure children remembered important lessons, such as religious tutorials, they were thrown into cold water after the lesson. This spike in adrenaline helped cement the memory of what they had just learned. This mechanism is adaptive from an evolutionary perspective, as a significant adrenaline dump would signal a critical learning moment, such as avoiding a dangerous cave with a bear.

This concept extends to conditioned place aversion, where the nervous system associates certain locations with danger. For example, if someone experienced a traumatic event near a cave, they might feel anxious even seeing a drawing of a cave. The nervous system, while nuanced, can be crude, leading to generalized fear responses.

Adrenaline not only triggers alertness but also changes the brain's chemical milieu, locking in memories associated with the adrenaline spike. For instance, if we were to witness a traumatic event, like a shooting, the adrenaline would consolidate memories of the surrounding environment, leading to seemingly unrelated recollections of the event's context.

Trauma therapies often aim to address these intense memories. Some approaches involve bringing the brain and body back into a high-intensity state to rescript the story, while others focus on revisiting the story calmly. These methods are akin to treating depression, where some therapies bring emotions to the surface for a cathartic release, while others use drugs like ketamine or MDMA.

Recently, MDMA was in the spotlight for its potential in treating PTSD. Despite impressive clinical trials showing up to 67% remission or significant reduction in PTSD symptoms after just two sessions with a qualified therapist, the FDA did not approve MDMA for PTSD treatment. This decision was a significant development in the psychiatric community, highlighting the ongoing debate and research in trauma therapy.

=> 01:01:40

MDMA shows promise for PTSD treatment but failed FDA approval due to trial issues; the journey for acceptance continues.

There are approaches to treating depression that involve bringing a lot of salience and emotion to the surface, such as the cathartic approach. These methods are tested, and some work very well. Additionally, the use of drugs like ketamine, an FDA-approved drug for dissociating emotions, has shown promise. MDMA, however, recently failed to pass FDA approval for the treatment of PTSD. This was a significant event in the psychiatric community, as impressive clinical trials had shown up to 67% remission or significant reduction in PTSD symptoms for people who underwent two sessions of MDMA with a qualified therapist in a clinical setting.

The FDA cited several reasons for the rejection, including the lack of a control group. It is challenging to have a control group for MDMA because participants can easily tell whether they have taken the drug. There were also other issues during the trials that made the results unsatisfactory for the FDA. Despite this setback, the effort to get MDMA approved for PTSD treatment needs to continue. Many people with PTSD and intractable stress disorders could benefit from treatments like MDMA, provided they have the right therapeutic support. Without proper support, these drugs can lead to negative outcomes.

It is crucial to be objective about why the FDA said no and address those issues systematically. Just like in scientific research, where feedback on a paper must be addressed to achieve the desired result, the same approach should be taken here. The goal is to satisfy the FDA based on the best criteria, ensuring that these drugs can help people in the right circumstances. The community working to get these drugs approved has faced significant challenges, but trust and rigorous testing are essential.

In a related note, trust is everything when it comes to supplements. Many brands claim to be top quality, but few can prove it. This is why I partnered with Momentus, which makes the highest quality supplements on the planet, with unparalleled rigorous third-party testing. What you read on the label is what is in the product, and absolutely nothing else. Dr. Andrew Huberman is the scientific adviser for Momentus. If you've ever wondered what supplements he would create or use himself, this is the answer.

One of my friends' husbands has suffered from PTSD and alcoholism, highlighting the importance of effective treatments. On a different note, I study the visual system and have an appointment in ophthalmology. Although I can see great at a distance and read small text, I have recently had trouble seeing things up close. This reminds me of my experience with LASIK surgery, which has allowed me to see everything clearly.

=> 01:05:13

Tim Kennedy's wake-up calls are the ultimate adrenaline rush!

One of my friends, her husband has suffered with PTSD and alcoholism. Speaking of switching out flavors, wild citrus is an interesting one. You know what's weird? I study the visual system; I have an appointment in ophthalmology after all. I can see great at a distance and read small text, but recently, I'm running into trouble seeing things up close. If I put something close, I'm blind to it. I told you last time about my LASIK, right? I can see absolutely everything, even ancestral trauma at 500 yards. I'm like Tim Kennedy. I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at Tim Kennedy. Lord knows I'm not laughing at Tim Kennedy. Tim, please don't hurt me; I'm a fan. The fact that you could see trauma at 500 yards is a high acuity vision. My goodness, I like Tim; he will come and find you.

I've got a story about Tim Kennedy and Brian Ken. Brian went over to the UK with Tim for some adventure, and he arrived late. Tim said, "We're going to go swimming in the morning." Brian, tired from his flight, tried to refuse, but Tim grabbed him by the arm and insisted. At 6:00 in the morning, Brian heard a knock on his door. Pretending to be asleep, Brian, an actor and comedian, channeled all his acting ability. He even gave a little snort. But then he felt the bed move and Tim's face came down to his ear. Tim said, "Brian, do you know how many terrorists I've stood over when they pretended to be asleep?" Next thing you know, Brian was in the water swimming.

This raises an interesting biological point. If you wake up at 5:00 in the morning and see a troubling text message, you'll be wide awake in a moment. That's adrenaline or epinephrine in the brain. The locus coeruleus, a cluster of neurons in the brainstem, sprinkles the brain with epinephrine when something alerts us, waking us up. In parallel, your adrenals release adrenaline, and within a couple of hundred milliseconds, you're up and moving, not thinking about fatigue.

Earlier, we were half-joking about Jocko Willink's 4:30 a.m. wake-up routine. You can train these systems. We were talking about entraining the circadian clock to different stimuli to become an early riser or a late-shifted person. All these neural circuits are subject to conditional plasticity. The alarm can wake you up instantly, or you might hit the snooze button. The sleep you get during a snooze is so good. You can condition these locus coeruleus systems and the adrenaline system.

=> 01:09:10

Your brain can rewrite your past to fit the story you tell yourself.

Fatigue and adenosine don't mean anything, and sometimes I think that, you know, earlier we were only half-joking about the 4:30 a.m. thing and waking up. You can train these systems. Earlier, we were talking about entraining the circadian clock to different stimuli to become an early riser or a late-shifted person. All of these neural circuits are subject to conditional plasticity. For example, the alarm can make you wake up, or in my case, you hit the snooze. Nothing feels as good as the sleep you get during a snooze.

You can condition these Locus Coeruleus systems and the adrenaline system. We were discussing this in the context of PTSD, fear, and non-nuanced alertness based on a broad stimulus. If something terrible happened to you in a garage, it doesn't have to be that specific garage; it can be any garage. The smell of metal and different sensory cues get embedded in those memories and feed into these alertness systems. This is why it is such a challenge to undo trauma or chronic anxieties; you have to get to the combination of things that act as the combination lock to undo it.

One of the most interesting things I learned from Paul Conti was about how trauma can repattern memories. I told him a story from when I was 20. I was in a head-on collision with a snowplow at 60 MPH on the main artery motorway of the UK going up to Scotland. The snowplow gently crossed into our lane and clipped our car. For us, all hell broke loose. I had a little bit of travel anxiety for a short while after that, which dissipated in about six weeks. I was uncomfortable with contraflow traffic and preferred to be on the outside lane.

Paul explained that trauma can make you forget that there was ever a time before the incident when you felt differently. This is where our brains aren't always our best friends. The story you tell yourself about these memories is crucial. Paul was adamant that I could have convinced myself that I had always been a nervous driver. However, I love driving and miss not having a car in the US. I finally got a car at the start of this year and enjoy being back on the road, listening to podcasts.

Had the issue been more significant or dealt with differently, I could have convinced myself that I had always been a nervous driver. These individual instances show why it is important to connect with your emotions and examine the unspoken assumptions about the world.

I have this notebook where I jot down thoughts, sometimes in a journal format or podcast notes. The other day, I had a thought that seemed funny. I used to make a joke and decided to script it out. It said, "My goal in life has been to go from 'oi' to 'Oi' to just peace." Basically, aside from sleep, these are the three states I can be in: idiot, aggression, and chill.

=> 01:12:57

Maybe the illusion is the pain, and we're here to be more joyful.

I recently started writing in bound notebooks, initially in a journal format, but lately, I've been jotting things down more casually. Sometimes it's podcast notes, but the other day, I had a thought that seemed quite funny. A long time ago, I used to make a joke, and I decided to script it out. It’s only a three-word entry: "oi, Oi, Peace." My goal in life has been to go from "oi" to "Oi" to just "Peace." Basically, aside from sleep, these are the three states I can be in: idiot, aggression, and chill.

The other day, I spent a lot of time explaining to a friend who was going through something unfair. We were parsing the difference between mistakes, misunderstandings, and betrayals, and how some people respond to mistakes and misunderstandings as if they were betrayals. Some people mix these up, which was an interesting discussion for me.

I woke up the other morning feeling off, with a lot on my mind. I couldn't remember a time when I woke up without feeling like something was bearing down on me. Rick Rubin taught me a trick: if you wake up from a dream and want to remember it, keep your eyes closed and stay still. However, if you're having a nightmare or don't like how you feel, move your body. This movement dispels the negative feeling. I've started doing this, and it has made it easier for me to remember my dreams.

I had a thought: maybe the illusion is the pain. We often hear that pleasures are illusions, but maybe the mental anguish and challenges of life are the illusions. Dopamine is real, and chasing it can lead to addiction or a joyful life. But maybe pain is the illusion, and the idea of challenge and dismay is what we need to remove.

A friend who is a talented trauma therapist once told me that in some Buddhist traditions, your work in this life is to burn down the samskaras—the weeds of life, your misperceptions about things. Martha Beck, who was on my podcast, said, "You're not here to suffer." This made me think that maybe a lot of the suffering we experience is an illusion we create. Maybe it's okay to be a little more joyful.

=> 01:16:42

Overthinking creates more problems than it solves; find joy in the process and make life 10% more enjoyable.

In a podcast I really love, the host mentioned, "you're not here to suffer," and it struck a chord with me. I thought, "I'm not?" She reiterated, "you're not here to suffer." I've endured a lot of suffering in my life, more than some, less than others, but I think we all endure a lot of suffering, largely as a consequence of what happens between our ears. Unfortunately, some of us also suffer because of things that actually happen to our bodies, whether self-induced or otherwise. But maybe we're not here to suffer. Perhaps a lot of the suffering we experience is an illusion we create. I started to write it down: maybe the illusion is the pain, and maybe we need to challenge this. Maybe it's okay to be a little more joyful.

I have so much to tell you. Overthinking creates more problems than it solves, definitely, unless you're solving a really hard problem. On average, as everything, Joe Hudson, from the Art of Accomplishment, a phenomenal guy, really interesting, came on the podcast. He has this very unique definition of efficiency and thinks of joy as efficiency. Efficiency is how much you get out for how much you put in—what is the return, the output, for the input you've expended. If you do something joyful, you have to expend less, and on the other side, you get out more. It's a lovely redefinition. Joy and enjoyment, for him, are the ultimate versions of efficiency. If you're using your passion, if you're doing something you find enlivening, you are, by definition, helping to make your system more efficient.

During the podcast, Joe Hudson asked one of his favorite little cues: "What would this be like if it was 10% more enjoyable?" I love that. Joe Hudson's idea is that joy is efficiency. When he asked this, I noticed I shifted in my seat a little, my back, my t-shirt was a little creased under my lower back. So, I adjusted that, maybe got a little drink, looked after myself, looked after my body, allowed the peripheries of my gaze to open out, or took a slightly deeper breath to oxygenate a little more. We can have fun right now, but we can have 10% more fun, just 10% more enjoyable, loosen the bolts 10%.

Another insight I've been thinking about a lot recently is that things are not what they are; things are what we think they are. For instance, doing a hard workout gives you a signature feeling: you're laid on the floor, panting, heart rate at 180, sweating from everywhere with the taste of metal in your mouth. This is oddly enjoyable. But if this exact same sensation were to spontaneously occur in your car while you were sat in traffic, you'd call the ambulance for fear that you're having a heart attack. Framing is everything. This is a quote from Rory Sutherland, one of the greatest living advertisers on the planet, Vice Chairman of Ogilvy Advertising. He's the only man I've ever heard swear in a TED Talk. In his TED Talk, he says, "Sometimes you just want to stand in the corner and stare out of the window. The problem is, when you're not smoking and staring out of the window, you're an antisocial, friendless idiot. If you stand and stare out of the window with a cigarette, you're a [__] philosopher." The power of reframing things cannot be overstated. It's significantly easier to find a way to reframe your experiences as enjoyable while you improve them, rather than waiting for them to be done before you give yourself license to be happy. That's like alchemy.

I like that. I'm both taking notes and listening very carefully. People exist on a continuum of bias toward more joy or bias toward more pain. I agree that we have a lot of cognitive control over the middle range. Of course, there are experiences that are awful, traumatic, unequivocally excellent, or terrible. There's no question about that. We'll get back to talking to Andrew in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Merrick Health. You might have heard me say that I took my testosterone level from 495 to 1,600 last year, and that was done without TRT and under the guidance of Merrick Health.

=> 01:20:39

Happiness isn't a destination; it's a journey of continuous improvement.

While you improve them rather than waiting for them to be done before you give yourself license to be happy, that's like alchemy. It's kind of alchemy; I like that. I'm both taking notes and listening very carefully. I think people exist on a continuum of bias toward more joy or bias toward more pain, and I agree that we have a lot of cognitive control over the middle range. Of course, there are experiences that are awful, traumatic, unequivocally excellent, or terrible—there's no question about that.

I turned 49 next month and have been trying to think about what I've learned and where I'm headed. Unfortunately, at times, but also fortunately, my memory is very good. I can close my eyes and hear conversations that I had with people with a fair degree of accuracy. I can remember walks I took with my dad when I was five or six years old, the layout of my room in fine detail when I was a kid, and I have strong recollection of faces and facial recognition. However, I don't track time well. As a professor, we get some leeway, but I perpetually run late. Until recently, I didn't really have a sense of death. I knew it existed, and I've had people close to me die—all three of my academic advisers died from suicide, cancer, and cancer. The joke in my field is you don't want me to work for you. For a guy that didn't grow up in the inner city or military, I've had quite a few friends die from drug overdoses and suicides. It's hard to know if it's on average more or less. I was a teen in the late '80s and early '90s, and there weren't a lot of people doing therapy or psychological meds for different conditions. Maybe that's it—who knows?

If I spend any amount of time thinking about the past, I can easily drift into it. Until very recently, much of my cognition each day was a battle between trying to anchor in the present and thinking forward while being pulled into memories of the past. Orienting toward the past offers such a rich opportunity to ruminate, and even music from the past acts as a cue to the past. However, something happened in the last eight or nine months where I feel hyper-focused on the present with very little focus on the past. I have an exquisite memory of the past but very little focus on it now. One of my journal entries was about trying to think of the different animals I felt I related to or embodied from as early back as I could remember. When I was a kid, I had the same voice I have now, and they called me "Froggy" because I sounded like the kid from The Little Rascals. My Adam's apple was out when I was a little kid, and I had hair on it. I have a genetic mutation where I overproduce androgen from my adrenals. Fortunately, I only have one copy of this mutation, which doesn't result in any other bodily differences, and I am aware I can reproduce. Let's just leave it at that.

=> 01:24:37

I'm in caterpillar mode: focused on the present, moving forward step by step, and embracing the journey.

When I was a kid, I had the same voice I have now. They called me Froggy because I sounded like the kid from "The Little Rascals," a show that most people now don't know. My Adam's apple was prominent, and I even had hair on it. This was due to being a heterozygote for a certain genetic mutation that causes me to overproduce Androgen from my adrenals. If I had two copies of this mutation, it could make me infertile, but fortunately, I have only one copy. This doesn't result in any other bodily differences, and I am aware that I can reproduce.

Throughout different stages of my life, I felt oriented towards various animals. At one point, I related to the mustelids, and at other times, I connected with certain species of cats. Recently, during one of my long Sunday rucks and runs, I pondered where I am in life right now. Surprisingly, I realized that I am in caterpillar mode. This realization isn't about becoming a butterfly but about focusing on the tasks of the day. My vision is limited to the immediate future, and I can only think about what I need to do next. This is a new place for me, as I usually think about the past and future more extensively.

This caterpillar mode is functional for me at this point in my life because of the enormous number of tasks and the many people I love and want to spend time with. I even drew it out and thought, "freaking caterpillar." We'll see where this goes. In the past, I've gone through different animal phases. There was a rhinoceros phase, where I moved slowly but with a lot of force, and a raptor phase, where I was observant and spoke very little for an entire year. People in my life might wonder what year that was because I didn't talk to them.

Right now, identifying with this caterpillar mode means everything is in small increments. I feel it in the way I talk and parse ideas. I'm writing bonus chapters for my book, which comes out in April next year, and everything is iterative, line by line. I'm not oriented toward the past; it's like a book on a shelf that I can grab if needed. Until now, I've existed by thinking about past losses and wins, but something has changed. I can't point to one single psychedelic journey or experience that caused this shift. I think it's a sign of maturity. The brain matures throughout life, and we have a developmental arc that starts before birth and continues until death. The great psychologist Erikson talked about core conflicts at every stage of life, from birth to one's 80s and 90s, dealing with issues like agency versus autonomy.

=> 01:28:15

Aging is a lifelong journey of growth and self-discovery, not just a transition from childhood to adulthood.

I was involved in some psychedelic trials, but I don't think that's the main factor. I believe it's that I've matured. The brain matures your whole life. I don't think we have distinct phases of childhood, adulthood, and then death. Instead, we have a developmental arc that starts when we're born, probably even before we're born. After all, we were embryos, and while we may not know if we had consciousness, we were alive. This developmental arc continues throughout life. The great psychologist Erikson talked about how at every stage of life, from birth until death, even into one's 80s and 90s, you're working out some core conflicts, such as agency versus autonomy versus having to do what others expect of you.

For example, my dad, who is turning 81 in November, is still cognitively sharp and working out whatever it is you work out at that age. Meanwhile, I'm working out my own issues now. At this stage, it's like having Caterpillar vision. The past, while important and informative of who I am and what I do, is not in my consciousness at all. It's a great place to be because throughout my 30s, I felt very stricken, pulled in different directions based on past, present, and efforts toward the future.

If anyone is struggling or feeling stuck in their life story, there's great advantage to just letting some time pass. Getting older is the best, as long as you maintain a healthy lifestyle: train with weights three times a week, run three times a week (long, medium, and short runs), take cold showers, eat mostly unprocessed and minimally processed foods, get good sleep, limit alcohol, deal with any addictions, and work on your traumas. By doing this, you'll have a great life and be healthier than 90% of people in the world. You may not win an Olympic gold medal like Cole Hawker, but you can still have an amazing life.

There have been many years where life felt like a battle, despite the opportunities and gifts I've been given. I try to make the best of those and share, but sometimes it just feels overwhelming. If it's a caterpillar, it's a caterpillar. After a run, I thought about the butterfly metaphor and started researching caterpillars. They are amazing creatures. Some have adapted different poisons so that birds that eat them don't die but transmit the discomfort to their young, who then form a permanent memory not to eat those caterpillars. This has changed my perspective on caterpillars, and I've spent a lot of time drawing them.

I think there's great wisdom in trying to think about different animals and how we orient toward them as people. I often look at other people and think about what animal they resemble. Different animals, in the absence of self-awareness, display the biases of different components of the nervous system. For instance, dogs that move their tails a lot and have spontaneous movement, like Pitbull breeds, versus a bulldog that doesn't move unless it has to, show different temperaments. Similarly, people have different spontaneous temperaments. I have a Hungarian colleague in Switzerland who is all staccato movements, thin, and has about 5% body fat naturally. On the other hand, I have colleagues who resemble melted candles and need to exercise more for their health.

Thinking about the last few months, it has probably been one of the most difficult periods I've gone through.

=> 01:31:53

I learned that media can twist the truth, but genuine supporters can see through the BS and stand by you.

Different breeds of dogs exhibit varying spontaneous temperaments. For instance, Pitbull breeds are known for their active and spontaneous movements, constantly wagging their tails, whereas bulldogs tend to be more sedentary, moving only when necessary. This observation extends to humans as well. I have a colleague from Hungary who works in Switzerland, and he is characterized by staccato movements, is very thin, and has about 5% body fat naturally. In contrast, I have other colleagues who resemble melted candles; they don't move much and need to exercise more. I care about them and want them to live longer, so I recommend resistance training and cardio three times a week.

Reflecting on the past few months, which have been particularly challenging, I must say it has been a difficult period due to a lot of misunderstanding. However, I've faced harder times before, especially when I had less agency and my community wasn't as established. This period was certainly not joyful, but it wasn't the hardest time I've experienced.

When asked about what I learned about myself, my psychology, and the dynamics of public scrutiny and pressure, I have several insights. Firstly, I realized that while media has wonderful aspects, it also contains a lot of lies. I didn't fully understand or believe this before, but I learned that stories can be woven from lack of context or outright lies. This was particularly jarring for me as a scientist, where cherry-picking data is unacceptable. In science, biases of conclusion and interpretation are revealed, and motivations are stated clearly, which is not always the case in media.

Additionally, I learned that having a famous name makes you a target for clicks, as people leverage your name and face for profit. However, I also discovered that many people are reasonable and can see through the BS. Despite feeling badly misconstrued, the podcast audience and others reached out in droves to show their support, which was heartening. This period also brought forward support from friends, family, and the community, including both podcasters and academics.

=> 01:36:29

People can see through the BS and crave authenticity, which is why podcasting is thriving—it's real, it's genuine, and it's the Golden Age of true connection.

Many people are very reasonable and can see through BS. They can recognize the tody efforts or attempts to spin a narrative that just isn't true. I have definitely faced situations where I felt I was being badly misconstrued or misunderstood. However, our podcast audience, as well as people outside that audience, reached out in droves to show their support. They said, "Listen, we see what this is like. We love what you're doing. We get it. Not a problem," and that was great. It also brought forward my friends and people in the community, both podcasters and academics, as well as family and friends.

The essence of it was when my dad, with whom I've had some challenges in our relationship in the past but now are really good, called me. He said, "They tried to pit us against each other," and I replied, "Yeah." He couldn't believe it. At 80, he couldn't believe it, and he's a very smart guy. He's a theoretical physicist by training, a first-generation immigrant who worked very hard to provide for us as kids. He said, "I can't believe that they would do that." I responded, "Well, this is apparently what they do." He then said something I'll never forget: "One trial learning," meaning we're not going to make that mistake again.

On the media side of things, I also want to acknowledge that there are people in media, both journalists and news platforms, who are well-intentioned. This experience provided an amazing contrast for me. It made me realize why podcasting and podcasters like you, Joe, Lex, Whitney, David Senra, Tim Ferris, and Rich Roll are so amazing. Rick Rubin is real. We're not pretending to be somebody else. We're not doing this to get clicks. Sure, you want the success of your platform, but you're being you. I'm being me. Lex is being Lex. Joe is being Joe. That's why it works.

It's been so interesting to compare and contrast this with traditional media, which has its merits, certainly, but has become this kind of senatur of a thing where you're not sure what the motivations are. Why would they go after you? You said this in a clip: "Why would they go after you?" Well, you generate clicks, but they're going after you because you actually have two, three, four, five, ten times their reach. Why? Because people know when something's real. If somebody's being genuine, even if they disagree with that person, we like realness. We like authenticity. We love that as humans. We want that. It's the artistic expression.

It made me realize the obvious: we're in the Golden Age of podcasting right now. Never before in my life have I been in the Golden Age of something. I came up early wanting to be involved in skateboarding. Friends made it as professional skateboarders; I didn't. I wasn't talented enough. Fine. I got into Neuroscience and caught the wave at a time when you could fund your lab with grants. I even still have some grant money. Even though I still teach and will be teaching again next spring, I've definitely shrunk my lab down. The media said, "Oh, he doesn't have a lab." Yeah, I shrunk my lab down. What's that mean? It just means I got my students and postdocs jobs. We published two papers, including a clinical trial in 2023.

I still have grant funds in a new department where we're doing some human clinical trials. However, I no longer run experiments on animals. That was a very personal choice for me. When you have students and postdocs, you need to be able to give them a certain amount of time to nourish their development. All of my students and postdocs have gone on to jobs or positions they wanted. I took care of my academic children. I think they would say that. If they don't, I'll hear from them. They're doing phenomenally well, and I'm very proud of them. They deserve the credit.

This experience made me realize that I'm still a neuroscientist. I still read papers. I'm still on editorial boards. Yet, right now, we're in the Golden Age of podcasting, this new form of media where people are being themselves.

=> 01:40:11

I stopped animal testing to focus on nurturing my students' careers, and now they're thriving.

In the department where we're conducting some human clinical trials, I no longer run experiments on animals. This was a very personal choice for me. Additionally, when you have students and postdocs, you need to provide them with sufficient time to nourish their development. Every one of my students and postdocs has gone on to jobs or positions they wanted. I took care of my academic children, and they are doing phenomenally well. I'm very proud of them, and they deserve the credit.

I still consider myself a neuroscientist; I read papers and serve on editorial boards. However, we are currently in the Golden Age of podcasting, a new form of media where people can be themselves. It's similar to radio and television but different. I recently watched a documentary about game shows hosted by Alex Trebek. The documentary, though lengthy, highlighted how game shows evolved from being mere excuses to sell products to focusing on the human narrative, eventually leading to reality TV shows. Today, social media acts as a reality TV show that we all participate in daily, with podcasts serving as an umbrella within social media.

For instance, Elon Musk sat down with Trump today. Trump's account was reinstated on Twitter, and he tweeted for the first time since his ban. He posted videos mocking Kamala Harris, praising himself, and announcing a live session with Elon on X. Over the weekend, there was a narrative that Joe Rogan had endorsed RFK, which turned out to be false. Rogan merely expressed that he liked RFK, as he had done before. Trump then posted on Truth Social, questioning how much Rogan would get booed at the next UFC event. This interaction highlights how fans and listeners of a podcast are part of the podcast in a way that no medium has allowed before, as they can comment and give feedback.

When dealing with a furor, such as the one I experienced, it's challenging to be misunderstood. Understanding the motivations of the media and the people providing stories to them is crucial. Although some of what was said about me was true, such as being overly doting on my Bulldog, there were also blatant lies. In overwhelming times, I rely on a committee of trusted individuals, including my podcast producer Rob Moore, my family, and friends from high school. Interestingly, many positive narratives from my high school and former girlfriends were discarded by the media.

=> 01:44:19

When life gets overwhelming, surround yourself with trusted people who can help you see clearly and keep pushing forward.

A portion of what was said was absolutely true, and that's the part where I was overly doting on my Bulldog. That is absolutely true. When things felt potentially overwhelming, I decided to do what I've done numerous times in my life: get a committee of people around me that I really trust and rely on their optics when I couldn't rely on my own. This meant my podcast producer Rob Moore and other amazing people, including my family. People from my high school were also involved. Interestingly, they interviewed many people from my high school but discarded those narratives because they were positive. They also interviewed many former girlfriends of mine, who I was in touch with regularly and still am, and who were very positive, but they discarded those narratives as well.

You're not looking for yes people but for those who can help steer you through something and help you see where you might need to pay more attention to certain aspects of your life. However, there is a thick black line here, and some things are simply false. Lex Fredman literally showed up at my home during that week and the weeks following, which consisted of many people coming to stay. I recall very clearly one day walking out into the yard after taking a little nap and seeing 15 or 20 people there, including my good friend Tim Armstrong, all supporting me just by being there.

We also continued to work during that time. We released solo episodes, posts, and podcasts. We were not going to stop working. How was I able to get myself into the right mode of mind? I learned to take five to ten minutes to meditate, concentrate on my breath, and try to get as present as possible. Your mind is always flitting to other things that try to distract it, but realizing every time you can hold onto your present cognition, even for a millisecond longer, you're doing better. This helps in ratcheting back and getting into action, doing generative work, teaching science and health information, which is why people listen to The Huberman Lab podcast. They don't listen to hear about my personal life or attempts to malign my past story.

There were some things that infused a focus and energy into me that I didn't anticipate, which were very beautiful. For instance, one narrative being spun was that my backstory about growing up in the skateboarding scene and getting into fights was constructed, which is categorically false. Steve Rugie, my team manager at Thunder and Spitfire skateboard companies, wrote to me saying reporters tried to get him to change his account of me calling him from being locked up. He told them the truth, exactly what happened. He also confirmed that he had put me on Thunder and Spitfire, something I had been uncertain about since I was 14 years old. Hearing that after 30 years was incredibly affirming.

People from my past, not just my family, showed up. Jim Theo from the world of skateboarding, Steve Rugie, and others from my past and present reached out. I received outreach from men and women in droves, including very high-profile people, lesser-profile people, and those with no profile at all, reaching out by email, phone, text, and even showing up at my home. They encouraged me to continue on my mission, and at that point, I was buoyed by their support.

=> 01:48:07

When you're misunderstood, sometimes the best response is to stay silent and let your actions speak louder than words.

Of course, you were on the team, and I was like, oh man, I waited my whole life to hear that—30 years. So, there were these things that had kind of vexed me for years, like was I really part of that, or was I not part of that team? What ended up happening is people from my past showed up—not just my family, but also Jim, Theo from the world of skateboarding, Steve Rugi—people from my past and people from my present. I just got outreach from men and women in droves, some very high-profile people, some lesser profile, and some with no profile at all. They reached out by email, by phone, by text, showing up at my home and encouraging me to continue on the mission.

At that point, I was buoyed by the fact that people could see the truth. They understood context being warped, lies versus truth, and that a single-sided story is never the right way to resolve issues. It was amazing to see. Then, we started growing, and I was like, oh my goodness, you hear about this, you're going to grow from this. I always thought that just meant psychologically and internally, but then it was like we grew. The next thing I know, I'm on Jimmy Fallon. Some people might have thought that came about before. Next thing you know, we're a Jeopardy question. All of a sudden, things started growing, and then I started realizing, let's just get back to work.

Was that the fastest period in the show's growth history? I don't know because I don't track the numbers that closely. I decided early on to remove my dopamine circuits from the numbers. I do my own Instagram, I do my own Twitter, and I manage my comments myself. So yes, if I say thank you in the DMs, that's me. But it was definitely among the sharpest inflections I've ever experienced. I think Joe said something similar about the CNN horse PAC DWMA scenario. Mario, although he might feel back, he had a sort of one-two punch with his infamous N-word video and the CNN thing within six months of each other. But he said the quickest period they ever had was the CNN thing. So, if you were one of the sensations, I imagine you must have felt indignation—this isn't true, and I want to correct the record. As you said, one of the worst things is being misunderstood.

Was it a strategic decision to not issue a statement? Here we go, here's the four-hour-long breakdown. You've got the tools, you've got the platform, you've got the followers—why not get it out there? Well, I certainly was tempted at times, but the consultation I got and what I eventually arrived at was that no matter what I would say, there were elements to some of that that needed to remain private to protect other people. In that sense, there were a few things I had to take on the chin to protect other people's lives—not their actual lives, but their well-being.

The other piece was that it was made very clear to me, and I wholeheartedly agree, that the media will cherry-pick statements and glue together things to spin a narrative. They’re still doing it, in order to spin a narrative that makes it such that no matter what you say, it won't be understood the way you want it to be understood. That was extremely frustrating to me. In fact, last night, late at night, I had a conversation with a male friend and colleague with whom we had a misunderstanding. This gets to something I mentioned a little bit earlier—not a betrayal, not a mistake, a misunderstanding. We actually didn't speak to one another for about a month and a half, and it was very frustrating for me and for them. Then he and I, I wouldn't even say hashed it out last night; we just brought to the table. I said, listen, I think there was a misunderstanding, not a mistake, not a betrayal. I own my part, and I'm sorry, and I've learned you say you're sorry. That was it. You say you're sorry, and he said the same thing. He goes, you know, I think I overreacted. I said, I didn't say no, you didn't or anything, even though I have my feelings about it. He said, I'm sorry, and I said, we're good. We're good. We had done the work internally.

Now, unfortunately, when things are done at scale, you don't get that opportunity. You don't get that on a media scale. Personally, I mean, obviously, I'm human. There was the need for reflection on the things of the past and present that I wish I had done differently. You make the change, and you move forward.

=> 01:52:20

Owning your mistakes and seeking clarity through prayer can guide you through life's toughest moments.

Listen, I think there was a misunderstanding, not a mistake, not a betrayal. I own my part and I'm sorry, and I've learned. You say you're sorry, that was it. You say you're sorry, and he said the same thing. He goes, "You know, I think I overreacted," and I said, "I didn't say no you didn't or anything," even though I have my feelings about it. He said, "I'm sorry," and I said, "We're good, we're good." We had done the work internally. Unfortunately, when things are done at scale, you don't get that opportunity, you don't get like a media scale.

Personally, I mean obviously I'm human, there was the need for reflection on the things of past and present that I wish I had done differently. You make the change, and you move forward. I'll also say, and people can roll their eyes if they want or they can come up with any theories they want, but prayer was extremely grounding for me in that time. Not meditation, not seeking approval, validation, and support of others, although support from others was critical, as was constructive critique. But prayer, to just spend time in prayer listening to any messages that I needed to hear about what needed changing in me—in my personal life, in my family life, in my work life, in my public-facing life—was honestly the cornerstone. That was the center of it all. That was the piece that allowed me to go, "Okay, you know what, this sucks. There's silver linings, there's misunderstanding, outright lies, lack of..." and you know what, I see all that. I see the changes that need to be made. I see where I also draw a thick black line and say, "No, that's not that, and we're not going to pretend it is."

Prayer was the thing that helped me calibrate my compass 10 times a day. It wasn't just praying like, "Oh please make this stop," or anything like that. It was more, "Help me see with clarity. This is the way I would do it." Again, people can decide what they want; I'm not telling anyone what to believe. It was like, literally on my knees, "God, please help me see and feel and think with the kind of clarity that's going to allow me to make the best decisions now and going forward. Let me get through this morning making the best possible decisions given what's happening. I'm turning over all control and agency over the things I can't control to you, and I'm going to put every ounce of effort I can into trying to continue teaching people about health and becoming a better person as I go." And that's still my prayer among other things. Before I go to sleep at night, I'm on my knees at the side of the bed, prayer kind of guy since the new year, since just before the new year. Before that, it was kind of in my head a little bit, kind of here or there. Before every podcast, I just went in the bathroom now and prayed before this. I go there for privacy, not because it's the bathroom.

I know for people thinking like, "Okay, this is a scientist now, he's kind of claiming the God thing." I'm not claiming anything. For me, this has been the most powerful thing that I've ever experienced because it's just given me peace and a compass and a rudder forward, even if I have to be at caterpillar levels of horizon view, like this far out in front of me inching forward. I'm just grateful to God. I'm grateful to God for the chance to keep going forward.

What would be your advice to somebody who's going through an emotionally intense period? It seems to me like if I was to try and deconstruct—not to make protocols out of a nightmare scenario—but social cohesion, groups around you, not being on your own too much. I'm blessed to have a huge network, but I'll say this: I have that network because I put work into that network. Some of these people I work with, but you know, Jim Theo didn't show up at my house because I'm a podcaster. He showed up there the same way he did two years before when I got slammed to the concrete in life. He showed up when I was 14 and I was a depressed kid sitting at the Embarcadero with a busted foot because I couldn't skateboard, and he just sat with me and gave me a book to read and encouraged me to write. I took what Jim did for me and did it for other people. So, I like to think perhaps it was God kind of returning the energy, returning the favor. You build your support system in good times, and when they're down, you support them. You don't do it because you might hit bad times; you will hit bad times, and that's one reason to do it. You just do it.

=> 01:56:49

Build your support network in good times because bad times will come, and you'll need it.

Jim Theo didn't show up at my house because I'm a podcaster; he showed up the same way he did two years before when I got slammed to the concrete in life. He showed up when I was 14, and I was a depressed kid sitting at the Embarcadero with a busted foot because I couldn't skateboard. He just sat with me, gave me a book to read, and encouraged me to write. I took what Jim did for me and did it for other people. I like to think perhaps it was God kind of returning the energy, returning the favor. You build your support system in good times, and when they're down, you support them. You don't do it because you might hit bad times; you will hit bad times. That's one reason to do it. You just do it.

If you're up, build your support network. It doesn't have to be huge, but make it strong by doing the right thing and setting examples. Whether it's medium or huge, make it strong. I definitely use tools to limit stress. The physiological side works to limit stress, get sleep. I didn't rely on pharmacology to get sleep. I know some people need to, but I just didn't want to go that route. Months earlier, I took a little prescribed half Xanax to try and sleep, and the sleep I got felt like crap. I woke up and decided not to do that again. I use breathing tools, NSDR, and some supplementation to sleep. Sleep is key. You win by sleeping. That was one of our mottos during that time and all times when we're out on the road doing lives. We're going from one city to the next, podcasting, doing AMAs, busy, talking all day, go, go, go. We're serious; we're like professional athletes.

Training hot and cold is essential. In really stressful times, I'll pare back on training a bit. I train as preparation. For me, lifting three times a week is crucial. I love training. I do my legs, torso, arms, calves, and neck. I do my long run, medium run, and sprint day. I do the cold and heat, but I do that not just as a means to an end. When it's time to sprint for the airplane or take a week and lean all your physical and mental energy into a crisis, you can do that. Then I go back to training. I think I would have struggled to regulate without training each day. Taking a walk, getting a good shower, getting your haircut—these things make a difference.

Another thing I learned is to call on people, to pick up the phone and say, "Hey, listen, I'm spinning here. I can't make sense of this strategy or that strategy. What do you think?" Then, writing down what that person said, taking a few things, and going inward. There is a tendency, especially with text, to constantly be increasing the size of your committee. Some people came to me immediately and said, "You should do blank." I was like, "Really?" They were like, "Absolutely do blank." Then I didn't do blank, and a week later, they said, "You absolutely did the right thing. You should do exactly the opposite of blank." I realized that not that I'm never going to listen to advice from that person again, but they were just saying stuff. You need to be a selective filter, and it can be very hard.

Anyone going through a crisis of any kind needs a committee, however big or small. If you don't have people, you need people in books, people in podcasts. You might give prayer a try because there's real peace at the center. From that peace, you can see the right decision and make the right decision for that circumstance. There are too many circumstances to say you should always say this or never say anything. What I do know is that, God forbid, if they come for you, Chris, or anyone, we've got you. I don't know what the best advice will be in those circumstances, but we've got you because you're a truly good person with your heart out there being you. Up until now, you've just been being you, and that's why you're successful. I got calls from people, some with enormous stature, and I couldn't believe it.

=> 02:00:53

In tough times, you'll discover your true friends and inner strength.

In life, making the right decision is crucial, but it’s important to recognize that there are too many circumstances to dictate a one-size-fits-all approach. God forbid if they come for you, Chris, or anyone like you, we got you. I may not know the best advice for every situation, but we got you because you are a truly good person with your heart out there being you. Your authenticity is why you are successful.

I received calls from people whose names you can guess, and some I couldn’t believe. These individuals, who I thought would be on the opposite end of the spectrum, called to support me, saying, "You’re doing all the right things, don’t let it get to you, keep going, think about X, Y, and Z." It was a surprising and heartening experience. In hard times, you will find your inner resolve, and the world will show you who your real friends and supporters are. I wasn’t keeping score of who supported me, but it was beautiful to see those who did. For those who didn’t, I understand they had their own reasons and incentives.

I regretted not messaging you that day, Chris. It felt like when it’s someone’s birthday, and you wonder if they need another message. Instead, I texted Rob to pass on my thoughts. Thank you for understanding. This discussion isn’t about me; it’s about the universal experience of going through tough times. When someone dies, everyone says, "My condolences, so sorry," but the time to reach out is also afterwards. Last night, I prayed for someone who lost their mom. I didn’t know her, but I felt compelled to pray. Reaching out to someone, even by text, just to check in, can make a significant impact.

The beauty of what you do, and what podcasters do in general, is creating things in perpetuity. The AI will be trained on these conversations, and your great-grandchildren will glean knowledge from what you’ve shared. This is nothing short of spectacular. When I was a junior professor, I listened to the Tim Ferris podcast. It felt like a friend in a city where I knew no one. Now, I’m fortunate to call Tim a friend. The loneliness and isolation people feel, especially those striving without a big network, can be overwhelming. I was that person, confused and without a network, but you build that over time.

People being themselves out there in the world, mainly through podcasts, is crucial. I hope that if bullet, bust, or cancer takes me out tomorrow, the things I’ve shared will help people now and in the future. It’s not about selling an advertisement or a supplement; it’s about the material. I feel immense gratitude for the experiences of the last year. While I wouldn’t want to relive them for their own sake, they brought me huge gifts and growth. If I could have done it differently, I would, but you know, God served up.

=> 02:04:45

Embrace the lonely chapter; it's the price of personal growth.

In the world of podcasts, people often express their true selves. I genuinely care about the impact of my words. If bullet, bust, or cancer takes me out tomorrow, I hope that many of the things I've shared can help people now and in the future. This isn't about selling advertisements or supplements; those are incidental. It's about the material.

Within me, I feel immense gratitude. I wouldn't change the experiences of the last year for anything. Although I wouldn't want to experience it again for its own sake, what it brought me were huge gifts. It grew us like crazy. If I could have done it differently, I would have, but God served up this meal just the way He did.

Have I ever told you about my idea of the Lonely Chapter? I learned this with Alex Hosi last year. The Lonely Chapter describes a time when you're growing and changing as a person. You become so different that you can no longer resonate with your old set of friends, but you're not sufficiently developed to have a new set of friends yet. The problem with this chapter is the constant desire to regress back to where you were. There's always uncertainty, and no promise of glory, success, or triumph on the other side.

For example, you might question why you're not going out with friends like you used to, choosing instead to meditate or read, even though you're unsure if meditation works. The dynamics and temptations of your old life pull you back. This Lonely Chapter is a period everyone needs to go through if they want to move from where they are to where they want to be. It requires letting go of people who can't go there with you. This isn't a value judgment about those who are content with their lives; it's about knowing there's something you need to change.

You will have to let go of certain groups, friends, routines, places, and activities. The rocky cut scene in movies lasts 90 seconds, but in real life, it can last for five years, and you have no idea if it will work. It's like ordering an Uber and never knowing if it will arrive. You're just standing there, unsure if it will come out on the other side. Anyone who has moved from where they were to where they want to be has gone through this Lonely Chapter.

I think about personal growth like the velocity of a rocket taking off. As you start to take off, you can begin to move more quickly. As you pull away from people, there's tension because your positive behavior can highlight the behavior of those who aren't moving in the same direction. You might become friends with someone who is ahead of you, and it can be difficult if you surpass someone you were previously with. This creates a sense of personal growth guilt, similar to survivor guilt. Just like a soldier who survives while their buddies don't, you might feel like you're betraying the older version of yourself.

=> 02:08:17

The lonely chapter is a crucial part of personal growth; embrace it and keep going.

When you start to sort of become friends with someone that's ahead of you, one of the really difficult sensations is if you then go past somebody who previously you were with. There's this sense of, "Well, I'm on the journey too, but maybe I'm not moving in the same kind of way you are." I came up with this idea of personal growth guilt, similar to Survivor's guilt. For instance, somebody comes back from war, and they were sat in the back of the Humvee, and the piece of shrapnel that was supposed to kill them and killed all of their buddies hit the engine block instead. They come back and feel like they should still be back there, but they're not. It's almost the same with personal growth; I feel like I'm almost betraying this older version of me, this past version of my life that I should be there.

There's a scene in The Matrix that Alex talks about where Neo doesn't know if he wants to move forward. He doesn't know if he wants to take the journey that he's called to. He opens the door, and Trinity says, "You've already been down that road, Neo. You know where it takes you, and you know that's not where you want to go back to." I think about that a lot, that lonely chapter. For me, it lasted for a good amount of time, transitioning from being a guy in his 20s that does the reality TV thing, the party boy thing, and then deciding to stop drinking. Ten years ago, this was revolutionary, especially as a club promoter. It's now very common, but it was pretty different back then. All of the incentives were for me to go back to partying. People would say, "Why are you doing that? You're going to be boring on a night out."

I realized that if you need to drink to be around your friends, you don't have friends; you have drinking partners. If the only way you can bear to be around your friends is to drink, then you really need to find yourself a better social network. I used to leave the front door of a nightclub, wedge my phone into the top of the steering wheel, and watch Alain de Botton's School of Life philosophy videos. It was evident that I had this odd sort of discordance in my mind. I was being ripped away from where I was to where I am. The lonely chapter is one of the most important insights that have come out of the show over the last 18 months because it's reassuring to a huge portion of podcast listeners.

Why do people resonate and have this parasocial relationship with someone on the other side of the planet? It's because while they're struggling to resonate with any of the people around them where they live, they end up finding solace in this person that speaks to them. The overarching lesson is to just keep going. The lonely chapter is a feature, not a bug, of personal growth. It is the cost of doing business if you want to develop yourself.

I recall in high school, getting hurt skateboarding and realizing I didn't have a future there, which fortunately was a good thing for me. It was like God intervening, saying, "Nope, you're going to get broke off again. This is not going to be your path." Following a high school girlfriend to college, I realized after the first year that drinking and getting into fights was not a good path. I decided to get my life in order and study a lot at a school where people weren't terribly studious. It was incredibly isolating. I even lived alone or with my girlfriend, feeling very isolated. In graduate school, I felt more social connection, but as a junior professor, there are important boundaries between you and the people you work with. Not having many male friends, my romantic partner, who I'm still good friends with, was a great source of family and support, but I felt cut off from other types of friends.

In this more recent iteration of entering the podcast world, you find your community. While I totally agree that you can look to podcasts, books, and even people who are no longer alive for mentorship, like the great Oliver Sacks, whom I've never met but reached out to people who knew him, they have given me information about him that has been invaluable.

=> 02:12:03

Good humans lift each other up, even when they don't know each other.

As a junior professor, it is crucial to maintain boundaries between oneself and colleagues, which can sometimes result in a lack of social connections, particularly with male friends. Fortunately, my romantic partner at the time, who remains a close friend, provided a great source of family and support. However, I often felt cut off from other types of friendships. In more recent times, entering the podcast world has helped me find my community.

Social connections can also be found through various mediums such as podcasts, books, and even through the lives of people who are no longer alive. For instance, mentors like the great Oliver Sacks, whom I never met, have been a source of inspiration. By reaching out to people who knew him, I gained valuable insights that helped me through difficult times. This is why I have a strong affinity for biographies and autobiographies; they allow you to feel a kinship with people. David Senra's show is a prime example of this, and I recently had the pleasure of meeting him. His podcast, Founders, is amazing and highly recommended.

Several individuals have been enormous sources of support, including Rick Rubin, Tim Armstrong, Jim Theo, Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman, and Whitney Cummings. People from entirely different industries, such as investors and media professionals, have also shown up to offer support. It's incredible how good humans help lift each other up, even when they don't know each other well. When people disappear, it often seems that their motivations weren't right, or there were terrible circumstances that led to their departure.

Recently, I heard from former postdocs of mine who are now professors. Through the philanthropy arm of my podcast and some donors, I can support scientific research, which brings me immense joy. Supporting the best science and hearing about the students they mentor is incredibly fulfilling. None of us live forever, but the passage of knowledge and support over time is invaluable.

Regarding Brian Johnson, I've known him for a long time and think it's wonderful that he's exploring the field of longevity from various perspectives. I recently spent time with him on Roatan Island off Honduras and at a Jeffersonian dinner. I see Brian as a scout in an army—someone who explores dangerous paths and reports back, which is invaluable even if it wouldn't be practical for everyone to do the same.

=> 02:15:41

We're all on the same mission to live healthier, longer lives, and it's the diversity of perspectives that drives progress, not any single viewpoint.

I have seen Brian in person maybe two or three times. I was at Roatan, an island off Honduras, with him at the start of this year. Additionally, I attended a Jeffersonian dinner and breakfast with him, which is very Bay Area. He brought some of the Bay Area over, and I had some of his nutty pudding. I had a sit-down with him, and the way I think of Brian is kind of like a scout in an army. It wouldn't do to have an entire army filled with scouts; it would be a pretty lousy army. However, I'm more than happy to have that one guy who is built to be a scout go up that really dangerous hill, where maybe the view is beautiful or maybe a catastrophe occurs, and come back to tell us what he found.

Brian is a bit of an astronaut. He expends time, effort, and resources to find out stuff. I'm all for him doing that, and I'll take the top 20% of insights from him that give 80% of the value. He is part of this incredible tapestry that's being built of public-facing health and science information. Never before in human history has health and science information been dispersed in the way it is now through podcasts, traditional media, physicians, scientists, and ancient wisdom.

I can sit back and see Brian, my position in the field, Lane Norton, the people that attack us, the FDA, and the NIH. I understand the process, having been on a grants review panel until a little over 12 months ago. I've reviewed grants, written grants, and fortunately gotten many grants funded, though plenty didn't get funded too. I understand people's different orientations and realize that we're all after the same thing: we all want to live longer, healthier lives with more vitality.

What I'm interested in is the overlap in the Venn diagrams. Whether you call it yoga, NRA, or NSDR, whether you're talking about REM sleep and the dynamics of spindle waves in the brain, or just about your dreams and doing a dream journal, I'm ultimately interested in the practices that are true now, have always been true, and can evolve through technology to allow us all to be healthier mentally and physically. That's the mission.

You want a Brian Johnson on the mission, a Lane Norton, an Andrew Huberman, Chris, the FDA, the NIH, and you want the arguments. What you don't want is people taking the stance that only their view is the appropriate one. As long as people voice their motivations and logic for proposing what they propose, it's mostly all good, except for the stuff that's dangerously bad.

I chuckle at the idea that any one of these perspectives is going to be the perspective. Historically, all you have to do is look at how our understanding of the human body and medicine evolved. For instance, "The Prince of Medicine" is a beautiful book that talks about Galen and how our understanding evolved from people being allowed to do more in terms of human dissection. The acceleration of science and medicine is now taking place at an unprecedented rate, with CRISPR, brain-machine interfaces, psychedelics, and supplementation.

People often dismiss supplements because they aren't regulated, but you could also discuss SSRIs, which have huge value but can also do huge damage. Any qualified psychiatrist will tell you that. Right now, we are on an accelerated path, and the challenge for most people is that they're drinking from the fire hose and don't know which filters to put up. It's super exciting, but arguing about these different orientations is as futile as arguing about what genre of music is best. There is no answer; most people love Taylor Swift, but there are also people who love other forms of music, and you'll always find outliers at the extremes.

=> 02:19:24

To truly succeed, shift your focus from consuming social media to creating and sharing your real-world efforts online.

Psychedelics and supplementation are just compounds, and people often use supplements without regulation. This lack of regulation is a significant issue. You could also have a conversation about SSRIs, which have huge value but can also do huge damage. Any qualified psychiatrist would tell you that. Currently, we are on an accelerated path, and the challenge for most people is that they are drinking from the fire hose and don't know which filters to put up.

All I can say is that it's super exciting, but you don't want to argue about these different orientations any more than you want to argue about what genre of music is best. There's just no answer. Most people love Taylor Swift, but there are also people who love other forms of music, and you're always going to find outliers at the extremes. Unless something is dangerous, most of the ideas I see out there warrant further exploration, and some are just really darn good.

I'm glad that Brian came up because he represents one spoke on the wheel, and it's an important one. In his absence, I think the field will progress less quickly. I just wish that people would look at things through these lenses. For the generation coming up that was weaned on social media, it's very important to realize something that David Goin has said. It's appropriate to mention this now because most of what's happening online is a consumer-based environment. He said it's easier than ever to become extraordinary now, and it's hard to overstate the power of putting away the phone and doing some writing or musical training. Using social media as a place to put your efforts out into the world, rather than a place to spend your efforts while standing there obliviously in the real world, is crucial. The people who realize that the direction of flow needs to be from the real world into the electronic world and out, as opposed to the other way, are going to be the ones who succeed in life. Barring some accident or injury, you're almost guaranteed success relative to your peers.

I remember we've spoken about this before, but I remember when NMN, rapamycin, and NAD were mixed in yogurt and were going to make us all live to 150. What is the state of the world of longevity drug supplements now? I just did an episode with Peter Attia. Here's the deal as I understand it: Peter is pretty bullish on rapamycin. Remember that mTOR, which is expressed at very high levels in essentially all cells of the brain and body during development, declines across the lifespan. mTOR, or mammalian Target of Rapamycin, is named after the drug that targets that receptor. Rapamycin targets mTOR and, in some sense, mimics fasting.

Broadly speaking, studies showing the extension of life in different species, including mice, indicate that being fairly dramatically sub-maintenance caloric extends lifespan. However, you're also potentially sub-happiness when you're that sub-caloric, potentially pretty weak immunologically, and physically weak. Yes, starving yourself within reason can extend your lifespan, but you also starve yourself of joy and vigor. At some point, you are sub-caloric enough that testosterone levels plummet in men and women, libido plummets, and fertility plummets in both genders. It's a trade-off.

I don't take rapamycin, Metformin, or even berberine, which is a poor man's Metformin. Berberine makes me very hypoglycemic for reasons that make total sense based on the mechanisms of Metformin and berberine. I do take sublingual NMN, but it's very important to note that I don't take it to extend my lifespan. I take sublingual NMN because it has, in my experience, caused my hair to grow very fast, which is odd, but other people I know who have taken it report the same effect. It also makes my nails very thick and gives me a lot of morning energy. That's the reason I take it, but I don't expect it to make me live longer.

The history around NMN is worth paying attention to. It was David Sinclair who popularized NMN. NMN is a precursor to NAD, and NR is the precursor to NMN. There's a phosphate group that gets removed. People who are not David Sinclair are fairly skeptical about its benefits.

=> 02:23:51

Taking sublingual NMN boosts my hair and nail growth and gives me more morning energy.

To extend my lifespan, I take sublingual NMN. By the way, I have no affiliation with any supplement company that sells NMN. I take it because, in my experience, it causes my hair to grow very fast, which is odd, but other people I know who have taken it report the same effect. My nails also grow very thick, and it gives me a lot of morning energy. However, I don't expect it to make me live longer.

The history around NMN is worth paying attention to. David Sinclair popularized NMN. Remember, NMN is a precursor to NAD, and NR is the precursor to NMN. There’s a phosphate group that gets removed. People who are not David Sinclair are fairly bullish about NR being preferable to NMN. Proponents of NR, such as True Niagen-associated folks, tend to focus more on the anti-inflammation effects of NR and point to the fact that NR has been shown to convert to NAD in cells more readily than NMN. All I know is that when I take sublingual NMN, my hair grows faster, my nails grow thicker and faster—two effects that I wasn’t seeking but that I’m okay with—and I have more morning energy. I have also taken NR and didn’t notice any tangible effect. I don’t take it because it’s very expensive relative to NMN, and even though I probably could afford it, I didn’t subjectively feel much. This is not to say it isn’t worthwhile; people might be interested in taking it.

NMN was popularized because David Sinclair started talking about it on various podcasts and then started a company that is evaluating it as a drug in a clinical trial. Therefore, the FDA said NMN could not be sold as a supplement. That’s the way the laws work, but supplement manufacturers continued to do so, and it does not seem like the FDA is clamping down on it hard because you can go on Amazon or any one of these different companies and buy NMN if you wish.

Regarding other supplements, I don’t take Rapamycin because there’s not enough human data. Honestly, my goal is to live to be 100 or 110 with vigor, and I’m not so interested in living to be 150. I’m also not interested in plummeting my blood sugar with berberine because it gives me headaches unless I’m eating a lot of carbohydrates with it. The only time I’ve taken berberine—and I might take it again—was during cheat days when I could eat a dozen donuts. If I take 500 milligrams of berberine first, I feel fine; otherwise, I feel like my eyes get blurry, and I want to pass out. If I don’t eat a lot of carbohydrates or sugar with berberine, I get a massive hypoglycemic headache, and it feels like my head is made of stone. It’s a very strange feeling that I don’t like.

For longevity, taking good care of oneself is crucial: don’t get hit in the head, avoid excessive stress, and follow all the basic advice we all know. The longevity field is peculiar. Brian might be onto something with exosomes and PRP exosomes. I do red light therapy because there’s enough data supporting it for mitochondrial health. I stand naked in front of the panel for 10 minutes—five minutes facing and five minutes facing away. For eye health, data from Glenn Jeffrey’s lab shows that red light therapy, especially in the early part of the day, may offset some age-related vision decline. Glenn Jeffrey at University College London has conducted beautiful studies and might be a fun person to talk to. He’s been in the game a long time.

Dosing with stress appropriately but not overdoing it, making sure to get enough sleep, and having a joyful life are also important. I love the idea that joy is efficiency and longevity. I’m bolstered by observing my dad, who might have a glass of wine every once in a while but never drank much, exercised but never overdid it, and always worked nine to five. He would put down the pen and focus on walks and getting sunlight. As a theoretical physicist, he would often take walks and think about science. He didn’t overwork himself but was very consistent. He has filed more than 70 patents and is still going strong. He moved to the United States in the 1960s and has many stories to tell.

=> 02:27:55

Moderation in all things leads to a joyful, efficient, and long life.

Appropriately managing stress without overdoing it, ensuring adequate sleep, and maintaining a joyful life are essential for efficiency and longevity. Observing my dad, who might have a glass of wine occasionally but never drank much, exercised regularly without overdoing it, and worked a consistent nine-to-five schedule, has been enlightening. As a theoretical physicist, he would put down his pen after work and focus on walks, getting sunlight, and thinking about science. He often took walks to think about science but never overworked himself, maintaining a very consistent routine. Remarkably, he has filed more than 70 patents and is still going strong.

My dad moved to the United States in the 1960s, escaping a country that didn’t support science. He often shared stories about people passing joints, but he always refused, having worked hard to seize the opportunity from the Navy to study on a scholarship. He held a strict view that all drugs were bad, whereas nowadays, I and others have a more nuanced view. For instance, cannabis might be okay for some, beneficial for others, and terrible for others. Moderation is key, even in exercise. People who engage in marathons and ultra-endurance activities don’t age as well as those who maintain a balanced routine. While they certainly age better than sedentary individuals, heavily muscled people and ultra-endurance athletes don’t age as well as older sprinters or gymnasts.

I recently saw a clip of a 98-year-old man performing impressive physical feats like pull-ups and skin-the-cat exercises, demonstrating remarkable grip strength and flexibility despite his age. This man, although looking 98 in terms of skin sag and gait, showcased incredible physical capabilities. I aspire to be like him at that age, although I’m unsure about the other aspects of his life.

The concern with ultra-athletes is the stress they endure, potentially due to free radicals, although I’m not entirely sure what they are. Stress is a significant factor. I attended the Olympic track and field trials in Oregon and met some of the best marathoners in the world. Cam Hays, for example, pushes himself hard, which is better than being sedentary. For Cam, it seems he has no choice but to push himself that way, as he’s driven by something bigger than himself.

Cam carries a fair amount of muscle, which is protective against muscle wasting that occurs with long-distance running. Stress is a major factor here. I recently heard about a man who ran the entire length of Africa, from Cape Town to Turkey, in a year—a feat reminiscent of Forest Gump. Similarly, Ross Edgley swam around the UK, becoming the first man to do so. He recently completed the world’s longest single-distance nonstop swim of 300 miles without touching land, stopping, or sleeping, over 50 hours. He ate and pooped in the water, and after the swim, he was covered in a gray dust from churning his own feces. Ross’s achievements are truly amazing.

=> 02:31:51

Ross Edgley just completed the world's longest nonstop swim—300 miles around the UK without touching land or sleeping for over 50 hours!

Ross Edgley has just completed an incredible feat: the world's longest single-distance nonstop swim. He swam 300 miles without touching land, stopping, or sleeping, spending over 50 hours in the water. During this time, he had to eat and even relieve himself in the water. The first time he had to go to the bathroom, he missed the butt flap on his suit, resulting in him churning his own feces for the remainder of the swim. This led to a gray dust forming inside his suit, a result of the prolonged exposure to his own waste. Despite these challenges, Ross became the first man to swim around the UK, an amazing achievement. He followed a grueling schedule of 6 hours on and 6 hours off for 6 months, showcasing the resilience of the human spirit.

Chris, reflecting on his own journey, marvels at the human spirit and the rapid growth and development he has experienced since moving to America two and a half years ago. He notes that optionality in life opens up rapidly during periods of rapid growth, making long-term planning seem almost pointless. Chris admits he struggles with long-term planning, preferring to focus on shorter time frames. He acknowledges that the pace of life can become so fast that one needs to learn to say no to opportunities that would have seemed like dreams just six months prior.

Chris shares his aspirations, stating that he wants to have a family and be a dad, and he loves learning and having meaningful conversations. He finds it incredibly gratifying to be seen as a peer by people he admires and aspires to emulate. Growing up in Stockton-on-Tees, a town in the UK known for its high teen pregnancy rate, Chris didn't have many role models. Instead, he developed the concept of the reverse role model, learning from the negative examples around him. He observed what he didn't want in life, such as unhealthy relationships with family or alcohol, and used these observations to guide his own path.

=> 02:35:55

Sometimes the best role models are the ones who show you exactly what not to do.

The town of Stockton is a classic Northern working town with nothing particularly spectacular, except for the fact that the railway was actually invented there. When I was growing up, I didn't have a massive number of role models, the kind of people I wanted to be like. Instead, I had a lot of people who exemplified what I didn't want to become. This led me to develop the concept of the reverse role model. If you find yourself in a "role model desert"—similar to a food desert—it's not ideal. However, I believe more people's lives are derailed by making errors than by expediting success. This perspective allowed me to grow up identifying behaviors and lifestyles I wanted to avoid, such as poor family relationships, using alcohol to cope with problems, and gambling issues. These negative examples served as way markers, not to follow, but to avoid, helping me navigate through life like a Mind Sweeper.

One extraordinary aspect of this idea deserves a neuroscience analogy. As a developmental neurobiologist, I teach embryology and brain development to medical and graduate students. Over the past 20-30 years, we've learned that the brain and nervous system—comprising the brain and spinal cord—are the most complex and incredible objects in the universe. Human brains have created remarkable technologies, from Elon Musk's rockets to this podcast, all products of this 2.5-pound organ. The nervous system starts from the union of sperm and egg, leading to cell duplications where some cells become limbs, others fingernails, and a certain number become the nervous system. These cells, trillions of neurons, must connect in immensely precise ways to enable sensory perception, trauma formation, and dopamine-related rewards.

A century-old mystery in brain development was how neurons find the right connections with such precision. Initially, it was thought that chemoattractants—chemical signals guiding neurons—were the primary mechanism. While these chemoattractants, like netrin and ephrine, do exist, most neural wiring occurs through selective repulsion. Neurons grow out, looking for connections, and are guided by chemical labels indicating where not to connect. These repellent forces progressively guide neurons into precise connections, ensuring that by birth, the brain and spinal cord are ready for life. Post-birth neuroplasticity mainly involves the selective removal of connections rather than forming new ones.

Relating this to my experience growing up in Stockton, the origin of the railway, I encountered numerous repellent forces—behaviors and lifestyles I wanted to avoid. This highlights a key principle: a good life is often seen as the result of selective, positive decisions. However, as I realized, much of a successful life involves identifying and avoiding negative influences, saying "no, definitely not that.

=> 02:40:03

A successful life isn't just about chasing dreams; it's about avoiding the wrong paths.

The so-called neuroplasticity is a selective removal of connections as opposed to the formation of new connections. As you're describing your experience of growing up in Stockton, the origin of the train, you describe all these repellent forces: "I don't want to be like that, I don't want to be like that." This highlights such a key principle, which is that we often think of a really good life as being the consequence of selective decisions for running toward, not away from, type decisions. However, what is incredibly important and not discussed enough is that so much of a good life, a right life, an incredibly successful life involves the "no, definitely not that" and a selective pruning and repellent mechanism away from the wrong territory. Forgive me for waxing poetic on brain development in relevance to your life experience because your life experience is far more rich in terms of what it means. If ever there was an analogy for how you've emerged and the trajectory that you've taken, it's the wiring of the central nervous system.

I think avoiding catastrophe is significantly more profitable than trying to expedite success. Amen to that. There's this idea from mathematics which is never multiply by zero. If you take 20 multiplied by three, multiplied by 400,000, multiplied by 1.3, and then multiply by zero, you get zero. So you can do all of the good work in the world, avoid eating seed oils, and not put any sun lotion on your testicles, and get all of your light in the morning. Some sunscreens are safe despite what the internet says. I believe in some sunscreens. I lost friends for saying that, but it's true. People will lose so much sleep and friends over debating seed oils. Goodness, seed oils and the sunscreen thing. Look, mineral-based sunscreens everyone agrees are safe except for the few people that don't like sunscreen at all. But I'm not one of those people. I believe in sunscreen. I wear zinc oxide sunscreen, but according to the internet, you find all sorts of lies about the opposite.

Anyway, if you multiply by zero, you've done all of this stuff, been resistant training three times a week, listened to the Huberman Lab, even subscribed to the podcast and got the additional AMA. Then you decide one day to just drive without a seat belt on. Or what happened to me two weeks ago heading to the podcast: I've got to get my run in. I love running. I'm going to take a quick run. I run down my street, live on a hill, run into the park nearby, run into a podcast van, hang out for a little bit, jog together, split off and head home. I'm thinking how am I going to get home, do my five minutes meditation, shower, and get ready to make it to the podcast studio in time. I'll just do my meditation now. Brilliant idea, Professor Huberman. So I close my eyes while running. I'm striding up the hill, it's a big wide street, and all of a sudden, BAM, I go right into a box truck.

I've been hit before; I boxed a little bit, skateboarded, hit my head. I'm not tough, but I've hit my head. I reach up, there's enough blood on my hand, I'm like, "Oh boy, it's a big one." Then I feel it gape, "Oh boy." It turned out it was like bone exposed, not good, no bueno. Ran right into a parked box truck. Hey, I'm the absent-minded professor at times. Meditate when you get home, folks. Fortunately, I have a friend named Jason Diamond, one of the world's best facial plastic surgeons. I didn't care so much about a scar, but he assured me we could do this without a scar. He said you have to get it stitched up within six hours. You're kidding. So I go to his clinic, fortunately, they flushed it out. He wasn't there that day. Meanwhile, Rob's waiting at the studio with the guest from Stanford, an amazing professor named Jam Zaki, who's brilliant. They put a couple of injections in, novocaine, suture me up, and a week later, I'm pretty good.

Jason and his clinic are absolute phenoms. Did he explain to you the importance of the six hours to avoid infection? It's the infection that gets in there. They flushed it, put some local antibiotic. All I put on it was a little bit of Neosporin after it was stitched. Got the stitches out a week later.

=> 02:44:15

Got injured, got stitched up, and healed like Wolverine thanks to BPC 157—just be careful with it!

I had to get in and get it stitched up within six hours. You're kidding. So, I went to his clinic, and fortunately, they flushed it out. He wasn't there that day. Meanwhile, Rob was waiting at the studio with the guest from Stanford, an amazing professor named Jam Zaki, who's brilliant. They put a couple of injections of novocaine, sutured me up, and a week later, I was pretty good. Jason and his clinic are absolute phenoms.

Did he explain to you the importance of the six hours to avoid infection? Yes, it's the infection that gets in there. They flushed it, put some local antibiotic, and all I put on it was a little bit of Neosporin after it was stitched. I got the stitches out a week later, and now it's been a week and four days. You're like Wolverine. Normally, I don't heal that well.

I will say this for the record: I've been experimenting with BPC 157, for which there are basically zero human data but tons of animal data. Anyone taking BPC 157, by the way, shouldn't take it continuously. If you're going to take it, get it from a compounding pharmacy and get it prescribed by a doctor because there are a lot of contaminated versions out there. I would never take an oral version; it can cause angiogenesis, the growth of blood vessels, so if you have a tumor, you could cause angiogenesis of the tumor. But I was taking it subcutaneously, and I do heal noticeably faster when taking BPC 157.

However, if I hadn't had that injury and a little bit of a calf thing I was trying to repair, I would not take BPC 157 continuously. Nowadays, I hear about a lot of young guys just taking it the same way they take testosterone cypionate, which is foolish. Two stories: I ruptured my Achilles three or four years ago. I took TB500 and BPC 157 for the six weeks after that. It was a complete detachment, a full rupture. You can even see if you lean over there; it looks like a zipper.

How did you do that? Playing cricket, the most British way. So, I did that, took TB500 and BPC 157 for six weeks, and the recovery was very good. It was also during a pandemic, so I had nothing else to do and was beyond militant, probably 95 to 98% compliance with sets, reps, and recovery.

Did you talk to Peter AA about BPC 157? He said there's no clinical data, but then you talk to X-game athletes or Olympic athletes, and many use BPC 157 to recover from injury more quickly. TB500 is very restricted, but BPC 157 seems to be less restricted. I worry about any conversation about this because people might think they can take it to grow bigger biceps, which is foolish. Cancer is nothing you want to mess with.

Chase, who isn't here today, started hearing about the great effects of BPC 157 and took an oral version of it. Have you heard about this anhedonia response where it creates a persistent feeling of hopelessness? That sounds horrible. Don't do it, folks. Taking BPC 157 or injecting testosterone cypionate just for gym gains is foolish. I was 45 before I touched anything, and you need to bank sperm if you want kids, take HCG to maintain sperm production, and keep dosages low.

I also did an experiment where I went on and then went off. I would not take these things continuously unless a physician says you need it. I'm living proof that you don't need to do it continuously. The angiogenic effects of BPC 157 are the most concerning because you could get vascularization of tumors. Is that mediated whether you take it orally or subcutaneously? Nobody knows.

Did you inject it locally into the injury? No, I was injecting in the typical love handle spots. TB500 was injected just because I was trying to get it as close as possible to the injury site.

=> 02:48:16

Keep dosages low and consult a physician to maintain sperm production and avoid continuous use of peptides.

To maintain sperm production, it is crucial to keep dosages low. I also conducted an experiment where I went on and then went off the supplements. I would not recommend taking these things continuously unless you're working with a physician who advises you to do so. I am living proof that continuous use is not necessary. When it comes to BPC 157, the angiogenic effects are the most concerning. There is a risk of vascularization of tumors. It is still unknown whether this effect is mediated by oral or subcutaneous administration.

In my case, I did not inject it locally into the eye; instead, I used typical spots like the love handles and the fat on the inside of my calf, hoping for some local effect. From animal studies, BPC 157 seems to detect injury in a unique way and leads to the activation of fibroblasts, which are relevant to tendon repair. This has been observed in Achilles tendon ruptures in mice or rats and also in sciatic nerve injuries.

There are a couple of peptides that are gaining more attention. BPC 157 and OIC are frequently discussed, and both are peptides, similar to insulin. For sleep, pinealon, which supports the pineal gland, is very interesting. We might discuss this more in the future when there is more data. Cagen is another peptide relevant to the Trek1 pathway, which can accelerate nerve growth.

Brian Johnson and others are showing interest in cerebrolysin, which is available in Europe but not in the US. I am currently taking cerebrolysin, although I have only used it once. I generally get nervous with intramuscular injections due to the large needle size required for a hefty dose, which is about five milliliters.

This reminds me, we didn't close the discussion on NAD infusions. I have done NAD infusions multiple times, and it feels like an elephant is stepping on your legs and you're getting kicked in the groin. Some people use Zofran to mitigate these effects, but I prefer to avoid medication if possible. While NAD infusions make you feel horrible during the process, you feel better afterward. However, it is hard to dissociate the effect from the saline solution used.

In Austin, there is a place called Kuya where they offer NAD infusions along with cold plunges and salt baths. They also provide Zofran to prevent nausea. My housemate Zach and I tried speeding up the infusion, which increased the pain. The faster you infuse NAD, the more painful it is, and without Zofran, you feel nauseous and irritable. However, once the infusion is done, you feel better. The rationale is that direct infusion of NAD, either sublingually or via IV, is supposed to get into your cells more readily compared to NR or NMN, which need to be converted to NAD. However, NAD infusions tend to be quite expensive, costing a couple of hundred bucks or more. I haven't been doing NAD infusions recently.

=> 02:52:01

NAD infusions might be pricey and uncomfortable, but they could be a game-changer for your health.

When you put it in the FAS, you infuse it, and the more painful it is. If you don't take the anti-nausea medication, you feel like you want to vomit and feel irritable. However, the moment it's done, you definitely feel better. I just don't know what the source of the effect is. The rationale here is that, unlike NR and NMN, which need to be converted to NAD, the direct infusion of NAD—either by some lingual electro-optic patch or by IV infusion—is supposed to get into your cells more readily. However, it tends to be pretty expensive, costing a couple of hundred bucks or more.

I haven't been doing NAD infusions consistently these days. I'm back to basics. I still do the basics, and I will give you my review on what I'm doing at the moment. Right now, I'm using BPC 157 and Thymosin Alpha. Are you injured? Thymosin Beta. The rationale is that I'm doing a very aggressive mold detox. I've heard that mold is particularly a bad thing in Austin, with damp nights and hot days. I haven't spoken about this on the show yet, but we're tracking everything, and I'll bring it up at some point.

I'm also doing ozone therapy. Have you ever tried that? Half a pint of blood is taken out, put into a bag with an anti-coagulant, and then an antimicrobial gas is pushed into the bag, making it look like it's carbonating your blood. It feels very sci-fi. Additionally, I'm doing a 25g IV, glutathione IV, phosphatidylcholine, red light therapy, and lymph massage—everything to try and fix my brain fog. You look healthy, thank you, but I don't feel it. It's working along.

One thing I did want to loop back to that you mentioned earlier is your teaching an undergraduate course. How is that not going to be the most oversubscribed course? People go to see you do talks in Australia. How are you able to organize a course at a university? Surely, everybody and their sister is going to come along. We'll see what happens. I've talked consistently; I've never taken a formal sabbatical. I have sabbatical time accrued where I could not teach. During the pandemic, we were mostly remote teaching. I was directing our course in neuroanatomy for medical students and teaching. I did some in-person lectures last year and a remote lecture.

My main appointment is in the medical school, where you either have to teach or do research to fulfill your obligation. At Stanford, we have the option to teach undergraduate courses. I spoke to my new chair—we decided I would teach an undergraduate course in neuroscience and health. It will also have some guest lectures, and we're going to make it a big course, anywhere from 400 to 600 students. I've taught lectures that big before.

When I was a junior professor at UC San Diego, I taught a course called Neural Circuits in Health and Disease. It started with 50 students and quickly grew to 400 students. I'm familiar with this format. We read papers, evaluate papers, and have guest lectures. I'm also getting some help from the students. I will probably need somewhere between six and eight TAs. The TAs are amazing; they handle much of the work related to the mechanics. As an instructor, you need to coordinate that. When I directed the neuroanatomy course, I had TAs, and there was a laboratory component where they dissect brains. The pandemic made it more complicated, but the TAs were phenomenal, and it worked out. I've reached out to some of the students.

=> 02:56:11

Balancing life as a renowned podcaster and a dedicated researcher is a thrilling challenge, but it's all about passion and purpose.

At Stanford, we read and evaluate papers, and we also have guest lectures. I'm getting some help from the students. When asked how many Teaching Assistants (TAs) we would need, I mentioned that we would probably need somewhere between six and eight. The TAs are amazing; they handle much of the work related to the mechanics, but as an instructor, you need to coordinate that. When I directed the Neuroanatomy course, I had TAs, and there was a laboratory component where they dissected brains. The pandemic made things more complicated, but the TAs were phenomenal, so it worked out.

I've reached out to some students who are helping me devise the curriculum, which is going to be a lot of fun. Learning from the students about what they really want to understand is crucial. Stanford students, like students elsewhere, are phenomenal. The students will be undergraduates, typically between 18 and 22 years old. We're going to involve people from computer science, AI, neuroscience, bioengineering, chemistry, and psychology. You should come up for a lecture. We will be checking IDs at the door to manage capacity and ensure only enrolled students attend. We won't announce the location of the course each day to avoid overcrowding.

People often ask if they can visit Stanford and see our space, but unfortunately, that can't happen. However, Stanford media is likely to film these lectures and put them out there, separate from the podcast. This could be a great way to get some free plays on YouTube, similar to how Bob Sapolsky's lectures at Stanford are very popular.

Balancing the life of an influencer and a well-known podcaster with being a responsible and in-depth researcher is challenging. In 2019, I started posting clips to Instagram, and in 2020, I went on nearly 30 podcasts, including Rogan, Rich Roll, Lex Fridman, and Whitney Cummings. We launched the Huberman Lab podcast in January 2021. Since I was 19, I've been a student and working in a laboratory. I started my laboratory as an assistant professor at 35, got tenure at 40, and have been at Stanford since then. I'm now 49 and tenured there.

During the pandemic, I shrunk the size of my research laboratory, partly due to the pandemic and partly because I was doing more public-facing work. The Huberman Lab as a research lab still exists, and we conduct human clinical trials. We published a paper in 2023 with my collaborator David Spiegel from the Department of Psychiatry, where we conducted experiments remotely using bands and other devices to monitor sleep and HRV while participants practiced stress mitigation techniques.

Currently, I'm involved in generating experiments in humans to evaluate non-sleep deep rest as it relates to patterns of activity in the human brain. These experiments are being conducted with Matt Walker at Berkeley and at Stanford through the Department of Ophthalmology and other departments. We are looking at visual repair, a long-standing interest of mine, particularly in understanding and curing glaucoma, the second leading cause of blindness in the world, second only to cataracts.

=> 02:59:54

Raising funds for neuroscience research is crucial to develop treatments for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and other disorders, especially with recent budget cuts.

Collaborator David Spiegel, who is in the Department of Psychiatry, and I started doing experiments remotely where people wore bands and other devices to monitor their sleep, HRV, etc., while they engaged in specific practices to mitigate stress. Currently, I'm involved in generating experiments in humans to evaluate non-sleep deep rest as it relates to patterns of activity in the human brain. These experiments are spinning up with Matt Walker and will be conducted at Berkeley, as well as studies at Stanford through the Department of Ophthalmology and other departments, focusing on visual repair. This is a long-standing interest of mine, particularly in understanding and curing glaucoma, the second leading cause of blindness in the world, second only to cataracts.

I still have research funds, and the Huberman Lab now operates in that realm, working with clinicians. Gone are the days when you could walk into my laboratory and see mice that express green fluorescent protein and glow, or brain bow mice that glowed 12 different colors—not developed by me but used by us. We recorded from neurons using extracellular electrodes and collaborated with Dr. Eddie Chang at UCSF, recording from the human insula while people were in VR looking at great white sharks that I filmed. I've been involved in various styles of research and remain very much interested in it. I'm still on editorial committees and so forth.

These days, due to the demands of the podcast and the upcoming launch of 30-minute Essentials versions of the podcast, in addition to the long-form episodes, I'm also writing bonus chapters for my book, which is out next April. I continue to appear on podcasts and am deeply involved in science philanthropy through my company, SCOM, and other venues. I'm very interested in lobbying for advancing treatments for PTSD and other psychiatric challenges. Because I'm spread over many activities, I'm restricted to doing one or two studies per year. I'm fortunate to have excellent collaborators, clinicians, and postdocs who can carry that work, but we still have to look at data, analyze it, and write papers.

One of the people who has been very important as an example and mentor, although I've never said this out loud, is Dr. Robert Sapolsky. He has been very generous with advice on navigating public engagement and transitions from laboratory work and teaching. Stanford has been wonderful in their support of the podcast, evolving new course curricula, and embracing new types of philanthropy to bring financial support to other laboratories, enabling them to conduct cutting-edge science.

During the Obama Administration, the Brain Initiative infused over a hundred million dollars into brain research. This funding was maintained during the Trump Administration, although it changed names. However, just this past year, the Brain Initiative's budget was cut by approximately 40%, which has significantly impacted many neuroscience laboratories' ability to develop treatments for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, eating disorders, addiction, autism, etc. A big part of my effort these days is to raise awareness and money from donors and through SCOM, my company, to support researchers in their critical work.

I am very passionate about this because, as someone who wrote grants and ran a laboratory for years, I understand that academics often have to work two jobs: raising money and conducting research. The best work often takes years to evolve, and many granting agencies will not fund work until it is nearly complete. Therefore, I have become very passionate about raising more money for the best science, and one of the things I love about doing science philanthropy is that I can direct money to laboratories that need it most.

=> 03:03:47

Raising funds for groundbreaking research should be simple and direct—one sentence grant applications only.

Money from donors, as well as from Scom, my company, the parent company of the HLP, helps bring funds to researchers so they can do their work. I'm very passionate about this because, as someone who wrote grants for years and ran a laboratory, I understand that academics often have to work two jobs. They have to work tirelessly to raise money just to begin their research. Sadly, many granting agencies will not fund work until it's almost complete. This has made me very passionate about raising more money for the best science.

One of the things I love about doing science philanthropy is that I can direct money to laboratories very quickly. I have a rule for giving funds to a laboratory: we are currently only funding human work, not animal work. The work must be of excellent value and quality, and the grant application must be one sentence—no more. If you write two sentences, you won't get the money. I don't require a budget because I trust the best researchers to do excellent work. The funds are unrestricted, meaning they must be spent on research, but researchers can pursue the great work they want to do.

For example, we've given money to Joanna Steinglass's laboratory at Columbia University School of Medicine. Her stated goal is to find a cure for anorexia nervosa, the most deadly of all psychiatric illnesses. That's a grant application I was happy to fund and will continue to support. It's been marvelous to see billionaire donors and others contribute hundreds of millions of dollars, multiplying our initial contributions from Scom. The ecosystem is perfect for this kind of philanthropy.

People who want to contribute can do so through our premium channel, where I conduct AMAs. If they want to give directly to Scyon Philanthropy, they can contact Ian at 2msommedia.com. This isn't money for my own laboratory; I'm acting as a hub to distribute funds to excellent laboratories. This mission is very important to me because I know firsthand the extraordinary amount of time and energy researchers put into raising money for their work. With more funding, researchers can afford to take healthy risks and have more time to develop and analyze data.

The more money that goes into research, the faster cures are found. This is a fact proven by every disease that's been studied. Where there is time, energy, emotion, and money, cures for the most challenging diseases are discovered.

I've been thinking about the juxtaposition between cerebral horsepower—cognition, rational material science—and intuition, which is more ephemeral and embodied. As someone who spends a lot of time thinking about science and how it works, my advice for blending the cognitive with the intuitive is to follow your intuition more. For instance, I remember as a graduate student feeling an idea in my body, specifically in my left arm, which led to writing for a skateboarding magazine and eventually to the podcast and philanthropy work I do now. The nervous system, because it includes the brain and body, plays a crucial role in this process.

=> 03:07:59

Tune into your body's signals to guide your intuition—it's your ancient wisdom at work.

As someone who spends a lot of time thinking about thinking, and considering science and how it works, I have some advice on how to follow intuition more effectively and blend the cognitive with the intuitive. I can feel ideas in my body. I remember driving as a graduate student to visit friends in San Francisco and feeling a strange sensation in my left arm, signaling that I was going to do something new. This led to writing about music for a skateboarding magazine, which eventually led to the podcast and philanthropy work I do now.

The nervous system, which includes both the brain and body, has an ancient form of response that acts as a rudder in our somatic awareness. Our thinking can be very structured, and I try to train both aspects. Here's an exercise that I think is very useful, given to me by the great Martha Beck, who developed numerous self-help and personal development tools. The exercise involves sitting quietly and imagining something terrible, observing how your body responds to that feeling of contraction. After shaking it off, you then imagine things that feel incredibly good and observe how your body responds to those positive thoughts.

This exercise taps into the more sensitive aspects of your nervous system to detect yes versus no. Many brain circuits work in a "yum-yuck-meh" fashion, where you either want to move towards things (yum), away from things (yuck), or remain neutral (meh). By paying attention to the signals that precede these intuitive decisions and practicing them, you can build your intuition.

Martha Beck's perfect day exercise is another useful tool. You take 10 minutes to imagine your perfect day without any limits, allowing your unconscious mind to bring up what truly resonates with you. This exercise helps you access the wisdom of your unconscious mind, which is based on your prior experiences and perhaps even the experiences of those before you.

What you're watching for in these exercises is how your nervous system responds before any action is taken. You're withholding action and paying attention to the neural signals that precede the impulse to act. This practice helps build your intuition and learn to respond to it consciously.

For example, the other day I was on a phone call and suddenly realized it was very energy-draining. I decided to get off the call, recognizing the importance of listening to my body's signals. Intuition in science is also crucial. My dad often talks about this, and Einstein did too. There’s a story about Einstein that illustrates the importance of intuition in scientific discovery.

=> 03:12:03

Trust your intuition; it's your body's way of guiding you through life with sensitivity and precision.

The neural signals that precede the impulse to act are crucial, and playing with them is a great way to build your intuition and learn to respond to it when you're conscious and moving through space. The other day, I was on a phone call and suddenly realized that I didn't want to be on it. I thought, "Yeah, Andrew, quit being such a wuss. Don't be so emotional." But then I realized it was very energy-draining for me, so I got off the phone call.

Intuition in science is a significant topic. My dad often talks about this, and Einstein also discussed it extensively. There's a story about Einstein where someone gave him a picture to sign, and he put an arrow to his nose, saying it was the source of all his ideas. This highlights the importance of sensing where things are. Everyone needs to develop a sense of what steers them in a particular direction. The somatic signals of the body are more crude but also more sensitive, similar to the neural retina's rod system in humans. The rod system is very sensitive and can detect even a single photon but has poor acuity. In contrast, the cone system is less sensitive but excellent at deciphering boundaries and color, allowing for trichromacy.

Within the body, we have a sense of intuition that we can learn to listen to. These signals are very sensitive, like a tuning fork to your environment. Most people suppress this intuition and override it with thinking and cognition. However, those who can combine thinking and cognition with the body's more coarse language can navigate their life experiences with exquisite sensitivity.

When you read or listen to Rick Rubin, you realize he has an incredible ability to let things waft over him and experience them, saying, "Yes, more of that and less of that." He is like a conductor, able to engage and disengage from experiences adaptively, which is why he can create music for artists like LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, Slayer, and Adele. Rick's ability to sense what is good and what is extra good is what taste is all about.

Similarly, experts like sommeliers, chefs, food tasters, or neurosurgeons know the precise movements and chemistry in their fields. They understand how a cut in a neural circuit leads to changes across a network, brain-wide and body-wide. Being able to straddle these levels of analysis is the essence of being a virtuoso. A virtuoso can embrace all levels of granularity in an exploration and combine them uniquely. Basic training in any field involves layering up formal training, which is essential for most people.

=> 03:16:13

Mastery comes from deep, formal training and relentless practice until intuition takes over.

In the realm of training, it is essential to grasp the Gestalt—the whole picture. When you sip the wine, you must understand how the cut you make in a neural circuit leads to changes across the network, brain, and body. Being able to straddle these two levels of analysis is the essence of being a virtuoso. A virtuoso is someone who can embrace all levels of granularity in an exploration, combining the details with the macroscopic picture in a unique way. The basic training in any field involves layering up formal training. Most people need formal training, and at some point, they reach a level of expertise where intuition guides them, grounded in all that knowledge. This intuition manifests in what seem like simple blocks but are built on an incredible depth of knowledge and understanding.

For myself, I've spent a lifetime exploring biology and the nervous system, which is where my depth of expertise lies. We are soon going to offer shorter episodes in addition to long ones because some people only have 30 minutes and want to know how to sleep better without listening to four-hour-long episodes. Offering and understanding different levels of granularity is key. Three years ago, I told Rob that in addition to all the podcasters already doing phenomenally well, David Senra from Founders Podcast and Chris would be the next level in a year. And now, you guys are excelling. This is evident from the number of different topics, venues, and the emphasis on production and team treatment. The nuance in your articulation and attention to details, like what's in your energy drink down to the milligrams, is impressive.

When you meet someone who runs a laboratory, they initially know where everything is placed. Over time, they may not know where the antibodies are because it's the student's job, but they knew how to know that when needed. This principle applies universally, whether it's Yo-Yo Ma, Rick Rubin, Rogan, or LAX. People need to understand the importance of formal, rigorous training. If there's no degree in what you do, it's just hour upon hour of practice. Eventually, it starts to look like shorthand and natural, but it's built on deep expertise. Without learning the rules of the game, there's no such thing as breaking the rules—you're just playing the wrong sport.

In my background with NTI, we always wanted our guys to come up from being a guest lister. We gave out wristbands in the rain and cold, asking people where they were going. After six months, they could stand at the front door, then work out how the TS worked, and eventually work their way up. There's something reassuring about hearing someone who may not know as much as the audio engineer or the Director of Photography but can hold a conversation because they were there at a lower resolution. This commands a kind of respect, and I've always wanted to embody and develop that in myself. There are disadvantages to being obsessive and vigilant, but there are also huge advantages.

My friend Eddie Chang, the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, is one of the best neurosurgeons in the world. He is constantly evolving his craft, as is Joe. This might seem promotional, but it is relevant to our conversation.

=> 03:19:47

Constantly improve and surround yourself with people who push you to be better.

The conversation begins with a discussion about the importance of continuous improvement and respect in one's craft. The speaker mentions how they have always wanted to embody and develop these qualities in themselves. They acknowledge that being obsessive, attentive, and vigilant has its disadvantages, but it also comes with significant advantages. For instance, the speaker's friend, Eddie Changen, who is the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF and one of the top neurosurgeons in the world, is constantly evolving his craft. This dedication to improvement is also seen in Joe, who is mentioned as an example of someone who continually refines his work.

The speaker then transitions to discussing sponsors and products they endorse, emphasizing that they only work with companies that are committed to continuous improvement. They mention AG1, Eight Sleep, and Element as examples of sponsors whose products they use and believe in. The speaker highlights that these companies are constantly improving their products, which is why they choose to work with them. They draw a parallel to companies like Apple and Meta, which are always updating and refining their technologies.

The conversation also touches on the scientific process and the importance of iteration. The speaker is passionate about anything that mimics this process, where a hypothesis is developed and continually improved upon. They believe in the value of products that are constantly being refined and improved, and they surround themselves with colleagues and sponsors who share this commitment to optimization and balance.

The discussion then shifts to the importance of hard work and dedication. The speaker mentions various individuals, including Joe, who manage to lead balanced lives while being obsessive about their craft. They highlight that success requires effort and dedication, and there are no shortcuts to the top. The speaker appreciates the hard work and dedication of those around them and believes that everyone needs to "chop wood and carry water" to achieve their goals.

Towards the end of the conversation, the speaker expresses admiration for the host and their achievements. They compare their own journey to a scene from an Indiana Jones movie, where they feel like they are just sneaking in at the last moment but are now moving under their own steam. The speaker appreciates the host's openness and sharp mind and wishes they could be as succinct. They also express a desire for the host to continue podcasting, as they always learn something new from them.

In conclusion, the conversation emphasizes the importance of continuous improvement, hard work, and dedication in achieving success. The speaker values companies and individuals who are committed to refining their craft and believes in surrounding themselves with those who share this commitment. They express admiration for the host and their achievements, appreciating the opportunity to learn from them.