Joe Root’s made Test history, overtaking… Alastair Campbell? | V&TCC Podcast

Joe Root's back-to-back centuries have solidified his status as England's top test century maker, surpassing Alastair Cook.

Hello and welcome back to the Voran Tougher Cricket Club, a podcast brought to you by The Telegraph. I'm Ben Wright, and I'm joined, as always, by Michael Vaughan and Phil Tufnell. The England Test team has maintained its golden summer with five wins out of five so far. We'll be reflecting on a record-breaking Test at Lords and looking forward to the final Red Ball International at The Oval.

Joe Root made history by scoring not one but two tons, elevating him above Alastair Cook as England's leading Test century maker. Despite those heroics, Gus Atkinson was named Man of the Match, with the start of his Test career going from great to frankly unbelievable. We'll also be discussing the news this week that Brendon McCullum has been named England's white-ball coach. If that wasn't enough, we'll also be having a word with the one and only Geoffrey Boycott.

So, let's crack on with it. Mike and Phil, how are you? It was very nice to see you hard at work in the media center when I came up. Yes, you don't remember? No, I do remember. Is that hard work? Well, you tell me. I find it extremely hard work. Oh yes, you look like you do. It was great sweating over the microphone. Well, you couldn't come down and get me; you were too busy. We have a very busy schedule, and you seem to pick the time of the day when we were actually working.

By the way, you just mentioned it—Joe Root broke all these records, 100 in each dig, Man of the Match. Gus Atkinson—it's incredible, isn't it? I wonder if Joe would have been feeling, you know, because the guys do like that sort of accolade. You get a nice bottle of champagne, a nice spot as well. It's a magnum. But isn't there a check as well? Yeah, but it gets shared; they put it in the pot, don't they? Do you get cash for Man of the Match? You do. I think you keep a little bit of it and then share the rest. Remember the big check you used to get? You could never get it in your pocket unless you folded it a million times.

It was another good performance at Lords, wasn't it? Gus Atkinson went out there and wowed everyone. Have you ever seen a better 100? I don't know whether I have. You? I don't think you can play better than that. I was watching it live and then watched it back. Not many false shots. It wasn't thrashing around; it was genuine. Some of the best cover drives there. They have all this data from 2005, and they can tell your false shot percentage. I wonder where that 100 fits in since 2005. He missed one ball that was going down the leg side, got given out, reviewed it, and it was going down the leg side by two or three inches. That's not a false shot. He played and missed one on 99 outside off-stump. That review—he was incredibly confident, which tells you he knows exactly where he is. He's seeing the ball like a balloon, knew his position on the crease. As soon as it hit his leg, he thought, "Now it's going down; I know where I am on the crease," which is a great sign.

I'm going to find that out, actually. I reckon it might be the best 100 since 2005. How can you get any better? He wasn't dropped. I can't remember a player missing. He didn't play and miss. The drive was an attack, not a beauty that flew past the outside edge. I don't think he had any of those.

=> 00:04:43

Joe Root's mastery across all cricket formats makes him England's greatest batsman ever.

Missed at one on 99, I think outside also. That review, he was incredibly confident, which tells you he knows exactly where he is. He's seeing the ball like a balloon, knew his position on the crease. He knew that as soon as it hit his left leg, he thought, "Now it's going down, I know where I'm on the crease," which is a great sign. Yeah, I'm going to go and find that out actually. I reckon it might be the best 100 since '05 because, I mean, how can you get any better?

I must admit, he wasn't dropped. No, not at all. I can't remember a player miss. Yeah, he didn't miss. The drive, so he's trying to attack, it wasn't a beauty that he kind of just defended and it flew past the outside edge. I don't think he had any of those. Yeah, he didn't edge too many, did he? Did he edge any? No, he didn't. Might be the greatest.

Every overlook, J, I mean, it's kind of incredible. He equaled Alistair Cook's record of 33 test centuries and then got 34. Mike, you called him the best player England has ever had. Why is he so good? Well, I look across all the formats. He's been a very good T20 player and he'll still play some T20, I'm sure, around the world and maybe he'll play for England, I'm not too sure. But in 50-over cricket, he's a master. He was a key component of that 2019 World Cup win. In test match cricket, I think if you put all that together, he's England's greatest.

I think Graeme Gooch is a close second because Gooch was a very good one-day player as well. But I think across all the formats, there'll be many that will say, you know, like Jeffrey was on the podcast, he was a brilliant player back in the day as well. But there'll be some that say the players in test match cricket are equally as good. But I think across the board, I've never seen a better batter. I really am. I think he's a pleasure to watch.

It's that slow, unfussy accumulation of runs that makes him so good. It was almost inevitable. We know, I mean, and that's the sign of a player. When we were talking to Cookie, who I thought handled it beautifully actually, didn't he? Because we were putting him under some pressure and giving him some stick about losing his records. He got the first one and then I think Cookie came out and said, on the next day, "Alright, he's going to go past me." You know what I mean? And we went, "Yeah, I think he is."

You know what I mean? It was just that inevitability about it all. He came out there, and you know that he might get one early, but as soon as he didn't get one early, it was nailed on. I think it's his love of batting. If you look at someone like Harry Brook, who's at the start of his test match career, he goes out playing all the shots. I think Harry will always give you a chance. He'll have moments where he smashes a 100, you go, "Wow," but I think he's always going to give the opponents a chance because Harry's a bit like K. He's got a bit of an ego, you can see that. You put certain fielders in certain positions, and I think he'll try and go over the top of it.

You know, how dare you put a fielder on the boundary? I can go over the top, I'll put one in the stands. So I think Harry's going to be a player that brings a huge amount of excitement but also moments where you go, "Oh, why did you play that?" I think Joe now, when he walks out to bat, anyone can get out in the first 20 balls. Anybody. The only way I think you can play against Joe Root as soon as he goes out there is to bowl just outside off stump, full of length, and pack your cordon.

Yeah, he might nick one, but by doing that, he might get to 20 quickly. He's going to get to 20 quickly anyway. That kind of dangling of the carrot situation as an opposing team, you have to go for it. Because if you allow him to line up with cover point on the boundary, you know, shuffling in the second slip, one slip and a gully, edge one straight through the gap, you can't do it. You think, "Oh, that was your chance, he'll get 100." He's that good and he's that hungry for runs.

There's nothing that the bowler can do now to Joe Root that he's never seen. He's seen every pace, every angle, every delivery. He said something on the TV after his first 100 of the two, and he said, "What I try and do is nullify my dismissal." So, I know how they're going to try and get me out. LBW is a key attack for the opponent, trying to nip one back. So what does he do? He comes out of his crease but with great balance, comes out of his crease and tries to get outside the line of off stump.

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Great players don't just score runs; they outsmart the bowlers.

Cover point on the boundary, you know, Shirer in the second is one slipping a gully edge, one straight through the gap. You think, "Oh, that was your chance." He'll get 100, you know, he's that good and he's that hungry for runs. There's nothing that the bowler can do now to Joe Root that he hasn't seen before. He's seen every pace, every angle, every delivery. He said something on TV after his first 100 of the two, "What I try and do is nullify my dismissal. I know how they're going to try and get me out."

LBW is a key attack for the opponent. They try to nip one back, so what does he do? He comes out of his crease with great balance and tries to get outside the line of off stump. He knows he's going to be quite far on the front foot. If it hits him on the pad, there's a chance he'll either be over that 2.5 meters or it might be going over the top. This means he ends up scoring runs off what the bowler would probably consider one of their best balls.

It's a great lesson to young players. Yes, you've got to think about how you're going to score runs but also think about how the bowler is trying to get you out. If you can nullify one or two dismissals, you can take away being out LBW by being down the wicket because you're not too fearful of the pace. They've then got to get you out caught. If you don't make a mistake, there's a very good chance you're going to score a few runs. It comes down to you making the mistake rather than the bowler bowling you an unplayable delivery.

It amazes me, and it still goes on time and time again. When you get a really good player coming in, you know he's the best player in the side or one of the best couple of players, it always amazes me how defensive captains go. That is not the way. You've got those 20 or 30 balls to go ultra-attacking to try and get him out. Otherwise, you are making it easy for them. I see it all over the world. The Aussies did it and nearly scuppered themselves in the Ashes over here. They tried to completely defend against Bazball. Sometimes it works, like at Lords when we just looked it all down their throat, but first up to the best players in the world, go ultra-attacking. It might take the captain's bravery, but instead of having two slips, have four slips, a couple of gullies, and a short leg because that is your window. I see it time and time again.

Two centuries, one in each innings at Lords, is a pretty hard feat. Only four people, I think, have achieved it. Not easy to do. Who was the last? Have you done it? I don't think I got Man of the Match either. Really, I think I did. Unbelievable. I mean, you have to look back. It might be Ashley Giles getting 10 in the match. I don't think I was Man of the Match. I snuck in a nice time with the Wests a little bit tired, particularly in the second innings, helped myself to 100. It was lovely, but the pitch was flat. I don't think I was.

As Phil said, as soon as he particularly in the second, as soon as that ball went through, I think he was on five when that ball went about four, everyone went, "There you go, done 100." Root's feat has prompted a question from a listener, Tim Waton, who emailed in. I really like this question. He said, "Should scores of 200 plus count as two centuries?" Because obviously Root has got 34 centuries now. If you included his double tons, it would be 39.

You shouldn't because every hundred you have to start again. It's a completely separate entity. Fair enough. A follow-up question: What is harder, a five-for or a century? Century, really? Absolutely, nailed it. I shall tell you why. With a five-for, you have to bowl well and everything, but for a start, you have loads of opportunities because there are six balls in the over. Usually, if you bowl a five-for, that's like 20 overs or 25 overs. A batsman, even though when you get in, it becomes easier. So they say, "I've never been in before.

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Scoring a century in cricket is tougher than taking five wickets because every ball faced is a new challenge.

Hundred you have to start again, yeah. Correct, yeah, so it's a completely separate entity. Yes, fair enough. But that, okay, a follow-up question. And the fact I didn't get a double hundred, so I don't want that to count. Okay, well fair enough. What is harder? I'm going to ask this to fill a five-for or a Century. Century, really? Yeah, absolutely. It nailed absolutely, and I shall tell you for why.

Because with a five-for, you listen, you got to bowl well and everything for a start off. You've got loads of opportunities because there are six balls in the over and usually if you bowl in a five-for, that's like 20 overs or 25 overs or something like that. Also, a batsman, even though when you get in and what have you, it becomes easier, so they say. I've never been in before and I was in once actually, I felt in once actually against Wer, got 67, lovely play. Yeah, thanks.

But every delivery that's coming down to you in a funny sort of way as a batsman is the first delivery you've faced. Because everything takes one mistake. It only takes one mistake. But then every time, even though you know every ball you bowl is going to be slightly different, every pitch is slightly different, every atmospheric condition is slightly different. Bowlers, you know, I've got wickets occasionally with the odd bad ball, you know what I mean. But if you play the odd bad shot, nine times out of ten, you might nick it or something like that.

Everything that's coming at you as a batter, you play that delivery, walk away, do your little bit of gardening, come back, and then the next ball is really a completely different ball, if you know what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I do, I do. But I mean, playing devil's advocate, if you get five wickets, that's half of the wickets on offer. If you get 100 runs, it's probably more, it's less.

I think overall, I tend to agree with Phil. But I would say there are times when 100 is a lot easier than getting a five-for. If conditions are right, so if you go on a flat one at Old Trafford day one, it's easier to get 100 on day one at Old Trafford than it is to get a five-for. Yes, yes. But overall, over the history of your career, I think, and you're looking at test matches, I think just. But I do think getting five wickets is difficult in certain parts of the world.

In other parts, sometimes in India when the ball's ragging square, it's not that difficult. I mean, Joe Root got, what did he get, five for eight, didn't he? That wasn't that difficult to get. But there are times when bowling and getting wickets is easier. But overall, I think it's just slightly harder.

Absolutely, and I'll try and wrap it up here in a nutshell. When I played the West Indies at the Oval, I got six for four or something like that. And I was sitting there, we'd won the game, and I was thinking, well, I might get a chance of a man of the match here, you know what I mean. It was my first test match in England. Judgy got Robin Smith, got about 125.

They said man of the match, Robin Smith. And I thought, okay, well, I got my five-for and Judgy got 124, so congratulated him and everything. Then we went back into the dressing room, and he stripped off for a shower. He was covered in bruises, and I was sitting there, not a scratch on me. I might have got a bit sweaty, you know what I mean. He was covered in little metal bruises.

That brings us nicely onto Gus Atkinson because he got both. Just peeled another one on. They are running out of ink in that dressing room. Gold Leaf, I think it is. I mean, what's he got now? He's got three-fers, got ten-fers, got 100, got a ten-fer. So he's on the honors board already. Let's work out, in three days against the West Indies, seven days of test match cricket, he nailed it.

Clearly, there are going to be more difficult times ahead because he's on the crest of a great wave, which is fantastic. But you can never ever take that away from him. He obviously likes Lords, and for his bowling, that little bit of slope there.

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This bowler's skill and adaptability make him a standout, capable of succeeding in any condition.

Room Gold Leaf is it? I think it is gold leaf. I mean, what's he got now? He's got three fers, got ten, he's got 100, he's got a temper. So, he's on the honors board already. He got 12 wickets on his debut, seven and a five. Yes, he's got five here, so that's three. He's got 100, so that's four times ten for five. Let's work it out: in three days against the Western, that's seven days of test match cricket, he nailed it full, and he's on five times.

Clearly, there are going to be more difficult times ahead because he's on the crest of a great wave, which is fantastic, but you can never ever take that away from him. He obviously likes Lords, and for his bowling, actually, for his bowling, that little bit of slope helps. There are some bowlers who just like Lords because they are very skillful, but just that little one that nips down the hill, and he bowls it on a perfect sort of length, top of off St. Very clever with how he holds the ball as well.

You know what I liked about England this week? They created fields on the leg side that were new. I had not seen that. I'd seen great job tactically, fantastic. Two slip leg slip, never seen that really. Probably towards the back end of a game, but early in that shank and second in, I saw two leg slips, short leg, short midwicket, mid-on quite tight on the catch. I thought, yeah, like it. With the slope going down, I completely understand it. It's a clever field to have. Tradition tells you that you have three slips of gulan, but from the Pavilion end with that slope, you've probably got more of a chance on that leg side.

They got two that went away up the slope. Joe Root caught at first slip, which was beautiful, just getting the ball to stand up the slope. Primarily, you kind of get it to go down the slope, hit the stumps, LBW, and also pat the leg side. Clever, like it. He holds the ball nine times out of ten with that sort of wobbled or scrambled seam but does have the ability to stand one up and swing it away as well. Very simple straight lines, hit the top off stump, and with that little slope, all you've got to do is jag back. If you can then just bowl a straight one, that is when you are in business.

When we talk about batters and having success, you've got to have defense front and back foot, and you've got to be able to score front and back foot as well. When you're looking at a test match bowler to go overseas and have success, you've got to be able to get wickets. The question is, is he going to be able to translate this success? I think because I've seen this summer, he's got wickets with a full length when the ball's moving around. He sneaks them off, gets wickets of a decent length, kind of just peppering into decent, the odd one just bounces, and he's also got quite a few wickets with the short stuff.

I watch that and think it's very similar to a batter. When you see a batter coming, if he can only score on the front foot, when he comes against pace or you get all dangerous, you're not going to be able to stand that. If you can only score runs on the back foot, well, someone just wobbles it up top, you're going to struggle as well. But as a bowler, you kind of look and go, is he just an English star bowler? He's got the ball in his hand, and it does a bit for him. I see someone that's better than that. I see that he's going to have a huge amount of success with the Duke ball. I also see enough pace and a little bit of good variation with angle changes. He's quick enough, not rapid, but quick enough. He should be able to bowl with a Kookaburra ball or whatever balls they use in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India. I see a bowler that can be successful in all conditions.

It is a completely different game over in Australia with a Kookaburra ball on Australian pitches. I remember the first time I went over to the Australian pitches, I thought, what is this? It was hard, flat, with a bit of bounce. But I think he, Glenn McGrath, bowled beautifully from that Pavilion end. He was very similar in how he went about his business, just dinky. He doesn't bowl many bad balls, no, he doesn't.

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Vice captains are crucial but often overlooked in the success of a team.

In discussing the different types of balls used in cricket, the speaker mentions the cabur ball and its usage in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and India. They note that the ball can be successful in all conditions but emphasize that cricket is a completely different game in Australia with the cabur ball on Australian pitches. Recalling their first experience on Australian pitches, they describe them as hard and flat with significant bounce.

The conversation then shifts to Glenn McGrath, who bowled beautifully from the Pavilion end. The speaker compares McGrath's style to another bowler, noting that McGrath didn't bowl many bad balls, half-trackers, or floaters. This comparison leads to a discussion about Pope and his potential as a captain. Mike wrote a piece suggesting that while Pope is a very good Vice Captain, he might not have what it takes to transition to a full captaincy role. Reflecting on Pope's performance, particularly his average at number three in the Ben and Bazball era, the speaker describes him as a frantic player, especially in the first 20 balls.

The speaker also reminisces about their own experience as a Vice Captain, noting that while they did as much work as the captain, they didn't receive the same level of recognition. They argue that the captain often gets too much praise and criticism, and the role of the Vice Captain is equally important. They highlight Ben Stokes' remarkable leadership over the past two and a half years, guiding the team into a juggernaut of positivity.

The speaker believes that giving Pope the captaincy has put his batting under immense pressure. They hope that English Cricket will learn from this and recognize the importance of Vice Captains. They draw a parallel to football, noting that not all great assistants make great managers and vice versa. The speaker sees Pope as a brilliant Vice Captain and hopes he can return to focusing on his batting after the current series.

Finally, the speaker touches on the tactical aspects of captaincy, suggesting that on-field tactics are not the most critical part of being a good captain. They argue that there are 10 other players who can provide input on tactics, and the captain's role involves much more than just making decisions on the field.

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Being a good captain isn't just about tactics; it's about leading with confidence and focusing on your own performance.

The captaincy of the team hasn't been fully vacated, and his performance as captain has been good. What we see on the field is actually the least of my worries. Tactically, out in the middle, there are another 10 players. He's not great at DRS, although that has been a bit of bad fortune. I'm not judging him on that. People talk far too much about the tactical side of captaincy as being the be-all and end-all of why you're a good captain. You're never going to get it that much wrong out in the middle because there are 10 other players who will tell you if you're doing something wrong.

Tactically, the bowling changes have been fine. We haven't really questioned what's going on in the last two games. The England team has been dominating, and it's not a tough time to be a captain. When you're challenged as a tactician is when the game gets hot, especially in the second innings where one decision might cost you the game. We haven't had that in the last two games.

We always talk about whether captaincy affects batting. It didn't necessarily affect your batting, Mike, or did it? At the start, it did. I didn't get it right at the start. I spent too much time on things that weren't important, like meetings, chats, and worrying about team talks. No one really realizes the pressure of walking into the dressing room and thinking about what to say. You have to speak not just for the 10 other players but also for the three players who aren't playing and ensure they're happy. Then there's the whole coaching department you have to address.

It's nerve-wracking because you're never quite sure what to say or what's right. When I was given the captaincy at the start, I always felt confident that I could lead. The real key to being a captain is being 100% confident in yourself. If you have any doubts, it's a difficult job to do. For Ry, it's been a strange three Test matches. He needs some runs. Forget about the captaincy and concentrate on batting. Ben Stokes and Zack Crawley are coming back, and Jamie Smith is incredible. Jordan Cox is a talent mentioned a lot. This week is a big week for OE the batter.

He had the opportunity at Lords. Sometimes, he had a huge amount of time and could have knocked a score around. The advice is to be a bit selfish. Look after yourself.

We'll be rating more players and dusting down the infamous Cricket Club scoreboard shortly. First, we're joined by a man who made an impressive 108 Test appearances, the last one in 1982. Welcome to the podcast, Jeffrey Boycott. How are you, and how's your recovery going? You had us a bit worried.

We were all worried. I was more worried when I was in bed with pneumonia than when I was facing Mike. Two steps forward, one step back. My lungs are a lot better, just a little bit of rubbish coming up, but on the whole, much better. I've got a tube feeding liquid food into my tummy. Nothing by mouth, just liquid food.

=> 00:27:03

Jeffrey Boycott's grandkids have him wrapped around their little fingers, even when it comes to buying bikes!

Of the players and dusting down the infamous Cricket Club scoreboard shortly, but first, we're joined by a man who made a fairly impressive 108 test appearances, the last one coming in 1982. So, Jeffrey Boycott, welcome to the podcast. Jeffrey, how are you and how's your recovery going? You had us a bit worried about that.

Ah, we were all worried. I was more worried when I was in bed with pneumonia than I was facing Mike Tyson. I bet. Yeah, two steps forward, one step back. Lungs are a lot better, just a little bit of rubbish coming up, but on the whole, much, much better. I've got a tube I'm feeding in my tummy. It's just boring, you're just feeding liquid food in, nothing by mouth, nil by mouth, liquid food, nothing. The throat itself, the cancer, that's going on pretty good. It'll take another six or seven weeks, the surgeon says, to fully heal. It's just two steps forward, one step back. A couple of bits of bleeding in the mouth because the skin is damaged and all the tissue in the mouth is damaged from 21 years ago when I had cancer of the tongue and then I had lots of laser, and you know, that just damages it. So yeah, there's bits and bobs, but on the whole, moving forward. A bit like batting, you play a miss, you get a nick, it's not out, move on. Good luck.

Hey Jeffrey, it was great to see you the other day. I want you to give an insight people won't know that your grandkids have got you right around their little finger.

Oh yeah, Olivia's three in July and he's five in a couple of weeks. He's the one who comes to me and says, "Grandpa, will you get me a new bike?" I said, "Yes." So, no negotiation. We went yesterday, Grandma took us, we all went to get bikes. The three-year-old girl, it has to be pink. We got a bike that's got more pink on it, it's got salmon pink, it's got fail pink, it's got any sort of pink. She's got a hat to match, it's pink all over. They all know what they want. You ask them which one, "No, that one." Well, try this, "No, that one." They all know what they want, makes no difference. And then he wants one, he's tried about 10 bikes riding around the Halford's there, riding around the store. We're saying, "Be careful because if you damage it, we have to buy them all." He's riding around and says, "Can I have this one?" "Well, no, that's a demonstration and they haven't got that one made up." "Oh well, what about this one?" He goes on and on and just wants to take a bike home then and there, like his sister. Then there's Elon because whatever he wants, they haven't got. Then this demonstration one is the last one and there's one with a lunch box on the back, crucial with some red cones in. "Can he have that one?" Oh my God. And Jeff, they're not cheap nowadays, are they mate? "I said listen, buy him the bloody bike, let's go on, we've been there."

Hey Jeffrey, on the cricket, what have you made of the summer? Obviously, England have won five on the trot in test matches, playing some decent stuff.

Yes, I mean they've won before playing the basetball, sorry about the word but it's the only word to explain. What I like most of all this summer, we expected them to win. West Indies are poor, I could use even another word but I won't on air. And Sri Lanka are better but they're not really a match for England if they play well. What I liked is we got rid of a bit of the bad basball and we're getting people like Joe Root, everybody knows he's a wonderful player, you know like every year throws at one super player, he's out there, this player. He stopped playing basball or he couldn't resist the scoop when he got 100. Okay, we'll take that, but he's playing more sensible. And there's one or two others, it's Ollie Pope and that left-hander up front, they're not getting in before they start to play shots, they're getting themselves out. And that, if you're going to be a top side when you come up against India and Australia, you can't afford to be gifting wickets and giving your wicket away. Like any sport, as people at soccer, the top teams Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, their defensive record is brilliant, never mind the goals they score, it's hard to score against them. Talk about the best player in the world at golf, he makes very few mistakes. The guy who's got the most charisma, Rory McIlroy, the guy who's got all the shots, we all want to watch him, it's wonderful to watch but he makes more mistakes. That's why he's not winning. You cannot do that at top sport. And Ollie Pope is trying to bash the new ball before he gets in and I try to tell people, it's difficult enough against the new ball because even decent bowlers in test match cricket, decent, not the best like Bumrah next year, decent.

=> 00:31:38

Success in sports, like in life, is about minimizing mistakes and mastering the basics.

When you come up against teams like India and Australia, you can't afford to be gifting wickets and giving your wicket away. In any sport, whether it's soccer with top teams like Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool, their defensive record is brilliant. It's hard to score against them. Similarly, in golf, the best player in the world makes very few mistakes. The guy with the most charisma, Rory McIlroy, has all the shots and is wonderful to watch, but he makes more mistakes, which is why he's not winning. You cannot afford to make mistakes in top-level sports.

Ollie Pope is trying to bash the new ball before he gets in. It's difficult enough against the new ball because even decent bowlers in Test match cricket, not necessarily the best like Bumrah, fancy their chances with a new ball. In England, the ball swings, wobbles off the seam, hurries on pace, and occasionally bounces unexpectedly. When the ball gets old, that's when the batsmen take over, and Pope hasn't grasped this yet. It's not just about his batting; you could say he falls over a bit, but that can be rectified if you know what you're talking about regarding batting. The first thing to solve is the mind. As Philip was saying, you have to be in the right state of mind.

Even one of the greatest four players, Brian Lara, would give the bowlers 40-45 minutes to get in. He didn't bash about from the word go; he got in first, then expressed himself. Ollie Pope, cutting off the front foot against the new ball, needs to be like Vivian Richards to do that, and he isn't. In the second innings, trying to show he wants the team to attack and be positive, he jumps to leg and tries to put it over point, but it holds out. He hasn't got in. He has talent and is a good player, but he's not Lara, Richards, Tendulkar. He needs to get in, and the penny hasn't dropped yet.

Joe Root broke the record for the number of Test centuries. What makes him such a great batsman? Apart from being a Yorkshireman, which helps, his defense is very tight and close to his pad. When he plays forward, he has a good stride, gets close to the ball, and his head is over the ball. These are simple basics. When he plays back, the bat is close to the body, rarely feeling for it outside off-stump or poking tentatively. He is good at getting singles, pushing twos, and angling shots. He hardly plays a shot but accumulates runs, which is the secret—not making mistakes.

The left-handed batsman up front could learn from Root. For example, when a spinner comes on, he goes for a reverse sweep or hit before having a look at him. It's important to have a good defense, which is different from playing defensively. Defense is your springboard to attack later on. Just have a look at the bowler, get used to him, see whether he spins it or not, and then play. But some players, as soon as the spinner comes on, try clever shots and get out. It's brainless. In local club cricket, the lads would question such decisions. You can't afford to keep giving your wicket away, especially up front.

=> 00:36:14

A strong defense is your springboard to attack.

Never say to people play defensive, but it's important to have a good defense. There is a very subtle difference between playing defensively and having a good defense. Defense is your springboard to attack later on. We would talk, and it still holds true, just have a look at the bowler, have a few balls, get used to him, see whether he spins it or not. But as soon as he comes on, Clever Dick reverse sweep hold out, just a Clever Dick isn't it? Just brainless. If you were playing in the local Club cricket, The Lads would say, "What the hell are you doing?" They would tell him when he goes to the pool board and comes back to the dressing room. You can't afford to keep giving your wicket away. Bowlers will get your wicket, especially up front where EBS and P bats will. You give people a new ball, they will get you out with cking deliveries. You'll go back into the dressing room and think, "H, what could I have done differently and how could I do it?" That's your mates, and look at it now, you can look at the film and actually, quite frankly, you get to the point where you think, "Hey, hang on, if it balls your same ball again, you probably get out."

Brian St once bowled me out at Sheffield roses match. I was about 64, I think I was about 23. He bowled me out with his action; it started to swing in, then it pitched about middle, middle and leg, and was hitting my back leg, knocking middle out. I went H not out. I'm sat with an orange juice that night in the committee room, the head is up, and he comes over to me, a lovely man Brian. He said, "What's the matter?" I said, "Well, you just bowled me out." He said, "Jeffrey, if I bowl another like that on Monday, that bag him." He was trying to be nice, but I went home thinking, "God, I'm going to get a p here." Sometimes you get balls that are so good when they say you conquer, they're just going to get you out. So you cannot give your wicket away.

We've talked about Root; he's obviously performed. Pope has disappointed. Are there other England players that have caught your eye either positively or negatively? Ah, the wicketkeeper is doing well. I like his Jamie Smith. His shots off the back foot are wonderful. You have a lot of players who are good front foot players, but if you can play front and back foot, because you talk to people like Holding and Marshall, these fast bowlers of the past, when he gets to Australia against Hazelwood and Cummins, they're not going to give you too many half-volleys. You're going to have to play and stay in, angle the ball, maneuver it for one or two, and then they get frustrated, the pitch goes up, and then you smack it. But you're not going to get too many half-volleys from the quality bowlers. So if you can play off the back foot, that's where they're going to make you stay back. It helps; his back foot play is excellent.

Also, Jeffrey, someone who sort of blasted onto the scene, especially at Lords, Gus Atkinson. He got a 100 as well. What did you think of him? What can you say? I mean, he's on the three honors board. I saw Vensaka in India. I was in India shortly; Vensaka of India played three times at Lords and got three centuries. I said to Sunas, "Would you like that? Oh my, three times." This kid comes and plays at Lords and just gets on the honors board each time. I think he can have a very good test career. I think the problem's going to come for the England bowlers, not just him. They all bowl around mid-80s. That's good, that's all right, mid-80s, we'll take that. Not everybody can be a 90 mph man. But when they're playing all these back-to-back test matches so quickly, you could see, I mean, people pointed it out, they get a little tired, and their bowling miles per hour is just coming down a bit, isn't it? When you get to 82 mph, that's okay when you've got a new ball. As I said, the new ball gives you a bit of swing, a bit of seam, a bit of bounce, a bit of this and that. There's something to work with, but the new ball doesn't last all day. 80 overs before you get another. By the time you get to 40 overs, 50, and you get starting to get the old ball, then against good batsmen, you're money for old rope. 82 mph will not cut it. You're going to go to Australia in a year and a half. Sorry, I know they haven't got a great batting side, but there's one or two of them who can play like Smith, and 82 mph is queuing up to get out. I'll be queuing up to bat at 83, at 82 mph. Right, that's not going to frighten anybody at test match cricket. It doesn't found a lot. 82 to 86, it makes the difference between nicking it and getting a thick edge.

Jeffrey, test cricket, you've always been a visionary. You were the first to talk about day-night test cricket. Lords on Sunday, there was hardly anybody.

=> 00:40:44

Test cricket needs to adapt: four-day matches, stricter over rates, and better ticket pricing to keep the game alive and engaging.

The new ball in cricket doesn't last all day, typically only for 80 overs before you get another. By the time you reach 40 or 50 overs, you start dealing with the old ball. Against good batsmen, 82 miles an hour will not cut it. When you go to Australia in a year and a half, even though they don't have a great batting side, players like Smith can handle that speed. 82 miles an hour is not going to frighten anybody in Test match cricket. The difference between 82 and 86 miles an hour can be significant, often determining whether a batsman nicks it or gets a thick edge.

Jeffrey, you've always been a visionary in Test cricket. You were the first to talk about day-night Test cricket. For instance, at Lords on Sunday, there was hardly anybody there, indicating they got the ticket pricing wrong. What are we going to do with Test cricket? Playing for four days is sensible; five days now seems ridiculous. The only thing hurting Test match cricket is the big bats and the high scoring rates, but the over rate is just going down, and the players don't seem to care. We need to force four-day matches, make the day six and a half hours long, and ensure they bowl more overs. They aren't even bowling 15 overs an hour.

Looking back, even in 1970-71, when we went to Australia with John Snow and Peter Lever, who had longer runs, we managed to bowl 17 overs an hour in the heat. Today, players just hang around, not knowing where to position themselves, talking at the end of the bowler's run-up about trivial matters. We need to enforce more overs and penalize teams for falling short. I suggested in the MCC Cowdrey Lecture many years ago that teams should be penalized 10 runs for every over they fall short. If a side is five overs short, it should cost them 50 runs.

The people are everything in cricket. If we lose the audience, the game will be dead in 50 years. Some countries, like the West Indies, can't sustain long matches because they aren't competitive enough. Matches end early, leaving no cricket on crucial days like Saturdays at Lords, which should always host matches on weekends due to their significance. The ECB's organization is poor. We need to improve the overrate by enforcing stricter rules, regardless of what the players want. They already stay out for six and a half hours and still fall short of 50 overs.

If we don't address these issues, Test cricket will diminish, and only a few nations like India, England, and Australia will be playing each other, which will get boring. We need variety and all countries to participate. India, being a powerhouse due to their television revenue and passion for cricket, should help other countries survive to maintain variety and interest. Without support, teams like the West Indies, Sri Lanka, and New Zealand, with their small populations, will struggle to survive.

There has been debate about ticket prices this week. I've always thought they are too high. The English cricket board often justifies this by saying they fill their grounds, but we need to consider the broader picture to keep the game alive and thriving.

=> 00:45:02

Cricket needs to share the wealth to keep the game alive globally.

Cricket enthusiasts are increasingly demanding more of the proceeds, instead of recognizing their wealth and using it to support other countries. This support is crucial for maintaining the variety, interest, and quality of players from these teams. Without it, teams like West Indies, Sri Lanka, and New Zealand struggle to survive. New Zealand, for instance, has a population of only five million people, making it difficult for them to sustain their cricketing infrastructure.

There has been some debate this week about ticket prices. Ticket prices are too high, and although the English cricket board argues that they fill their grounds, this week has proven otherwise. Playing in front of a full house creates a great atmosphere and enhances the players' emotions. The board should have anticipated this from past experiences, such as the West Indies series. If England plays well, matches against teams like Sri Lanka might not last more than three days. Players like Pope and Dookie need to perform better, and if they do, England could dominate. Harry Brook, for instance, has immense talent and charisma, reminiscent of Kevin Peterson. Brook needs to play normally first and then take the game away from the opposition later on.

Shifting focus to football, particularly Manchester United, the situation is equally frustrating. Despite spending significant amounts of money since Alex Ferguson left, the club has invested in some bad players at inflated prices. For example, Anthony, who cost 80 million, is criticized for being a one-trick pony. He rushes up the wing only to come back inside, lacking a right foot to stand on. The defense is also problematic. During a recent game against Liverpool, the new right fullback was found in the penalty area, leaving the right side undefended, which led to Liverpool's first goal.

Brian K, a best friend, shared an anecdote about a left fullback who was told by his manager that his primary job was to defend, and only occasionally attack. This principle applied to the entire back four, emphasizing the importance of a solid defense. Teams that win championships in Great Britain often have the best defensive records, such as Man City, Arsenal, and Liverpool. These teams are organized defensively and then attack effectively. The coaching at Manchester United is not up to par, and perhaps a demonstration with a whiteboard could help.

Jeffrey, it’s always a massive pleasure to have you on the podcast, especially now that you’re on the mend. Thank you so much for joining us, and stay well. Cheers, Jeffrey, you look great.

=> 00:49:38

A strong defense is the foundation of championship-winning teams.

Start from a good defense and people win the championship in Great Britain. The teams who have the best defensive record are the ones you don't score much against, like Man City, Arsenal, or Liverpool. They are organized defensively and then they hit you hard when they attack. It must be that the coaching is not good enough. I think you need to go to Kingson Jeffrey, get your whiteboard out, and give him a demonstration.

Jeffrey, it's always a massive pleasure to have you on the podcast, but especially this time. Great to hear that you're on the mend. Thank you so much for joining us and stay well. Cheers, Jeffrey. It was great to see you. You look great.

Looking ahead to the third and final test match, Phil, are we confident it's going to be a clean sweep, six wins out of six? Yes, pretty much so. The Sri Lankans have fought well; I've been impressed with them. But over that period of time, that's what Test Cricket's all about, isn't it? That sort of wearing down process. Can you do it session after session? Put pressure on with the ball? Can you then make the most of starts? They just haven't had any starts, so they've always been behind the eight ball, but they fought quite hard. I think that's going to be very similar to what's going to happen at the Oval. I think England, on a roll, are going to win six test matches out of six for my money, and that's a great effort.

We got Josh Hull coming in for OE Stone. Excited about seeing him bowling? Absolutely. 6'7", size 15 feet, apparently huge. He hasn't got 15 feet; he's got size 15 feet, otherwise he'd be a centipede. Listen, I think it's another Mullan Stoke sort of pick, you know what I mean? Let's have a little look at him. Probably, you know, two-one up overall, going to be a little bit bouncy perhaps at the Oval. Let's just see what you got, young man. It's a fantastic story, really. He wasn't really playing cricket until about 17 or 18. Big like a rugby player.

I think what happened is they picked him last week. If you think about Matthew Potts, he's done well. You're looking at Matthew and thinking, "Oh, but I completely understand why they've gone with Joshua." I reckon he's been around the squad last week. Someone like Jimmy Anderson's looked at him and gone, "Wow, he's big. This guy's good." Really, what in the nets? Oh yeah, and he was bowling out on the square pretty much most lunch, and we were watching him and thinking, "Yeah, he looks handy." Sometimes a player comes into the squad and just in practice, you see something quite special, and you think, "Got to get him in." Matthew Potts is very unlucky, but I completely understand why they're going with Joshua. X-Factor, point of difference. With Potts, you know what you're getting. He'll never let England down, and he is unfortunate to miss out this week. But when you see something a bit special, and I think England have seen something in Hull.

Left arm, basher, a bit of rougher basher. Those massive feet, 15 of them, they'll be massive on day one, won't they? Balls over the wicket like trenches being dug out for basher, which will be great. I hear only good things about Josh, and we're in the post-Anderson, post-Broad era. They just want to increase that stable of quicks. Well, if Hull can be the real deal, you go a year down the line, getting on that plane to Australia. I'm not saying he's going to be a shoo-in to start, but if you can have a tall left-arm quick, shoo-in, huge shoo-in, massive. If you can get to Perth and you've got someone who's 6'8" and can bowl 85 to 87 mph from left-arm over, you'd take that. Stark has done it for Australia for years. I don't think he's as quick as Mitchell Stark, but you're looking at skill sets. England are pretty much covering all angles, and it's exciting. I'm actually now going to the Oval. I want to have a look at this kid. It's just good to see exciting young kids playing cricket now. If they see something in a player and they feel that they...

=> 00:53:21

England's cricket team is betting on young talent and dynamic leadership to rejuvenate their game.

He's 6'8" and can bowl at 85 mph. He's getting bigger, and if you can have a huge monster running in at Perth, bowling 85 to 87 mph from left arm over, you'd take that. Stark has done it for Australia for years. Although I don't think he's as quick as Mitchell Stark, England is covering all angles with their skill sets, and it's exciting. I'm actually going to the Oval to have a look at this kid. It's exciting to see young kids playing cricket now.

England's setup is quick to recognize potential in players. If they see a high ceiling on a player, they are not scared to throw him in. This kid wasn't really playing at 16 or 17 years old; he was just playing representative cricket. Now, at 20, he's running up the ball. In the county game, there might be conversations like, "But wait a minute, he hasn't ripped Division Two apart. He hasn't got six or seven wickets in Division Two for Leicestershire, but he's now playing for England. How? Why?" It's because the England management sees something special at the highest level.

If he's developed nicely, what's better for him: playing for Leicestershire or bowling for England with Jimmy Anderson as his mentor? In a team against Sri Lanka, whatever Josh does this week, England will win. It's a perfect time to throw a player in. If Josh has a great game, England will win easily. If he has a weak game and isn't quite ready for this level, England will still win. It's a perfect time to make his debut. The England management must have seen something special in him to give him a go.

There will be nerves for him, of course. His shoes are going to fill up the dressing room; he's got big shoes to fill. You wouldn't want to change next to him; his shoes will be everywhere, like speed boats and surfboards all over the dressing room.

Talking about the England management, Phil's mate Baz McCullum is taking over as the white-ball coach as well. What do we think about combining the two roles? Is it too much for one person, or does it make it easier to manage resources efficiently? He would have thought about this, and I think it's a great appointment. It's probably the appointment we thought was the other way around with the Test match. Now he's overseeing everything, bringing a lot more dynamism.

We had a team full of fantastic players but were just treading water in white-ball cricket after Eoin Morgan. This appointment will rejuvenate the team. Baz McCullum is a top man, a great motivator, and a clever boy who knows his stuff. The one-day team needed a spark, and they've got it in Baz McCullum.

Considering the schedules, it's a tough job to do everything, but Baz McCullum won't be involved in every series. He's the kind of character who would delegate, not egotistical enough to think he has to be there every day. If he needs time away, let him miss a one-day series or a test series. He's committed until the 2027 Ashes series in the UK, which is great. He doesn't need to be there every week or every day. If he needs time back in New Zealand for a month, let him go. When it comes to World Cups, Champions Trophies, or big test match series, he'll be there.

=> 00:56:56

Embrace the new era of flexible leadership; it's all about the right attitude and the spark to succeed.

In this year, particularly with Bas M, he won't be involved in every series. He's absolutely the kind of character that'll go, "Tre, you take that series over. I'm not egotistical enough to think I have to be there every day." If he needs a little bit of time away, just let him miss a one-day series or maybe a test series. After next year's Ashes, he's committed till the 2027 Ashes series here in the UK, which is great. Does he need to be there every week, every day? I don't think so. If he needs a little bit of time back in New Zealand for a month, just let him go and have a month away. When it comes to World Cups, Champions Trophies, and big test match series, he'll be there. We're in a different era of coaching, management, and leadership, and he has got it—whatever it is that you need. He has that spark, he has that leadership quality. It's a great appointment because I never thought it was on the table. I thought, well, he obviously didn't want both, and that's why he's not got both. That's why no one was speaking about B McCullum really being the one-day coach as soon as he was appointed.

When he was interviewed for the test position, he didn't want to handle both because his name was in the hat for the white-ball coach at that point. He didn't want it because the white-ball team was riding high. He's a clever man because he took the test team when it needed a lot of work and didn't have to do a great deal to make it better, and he made it better very quickly. Now, he's taking the white-ball team, which needs a bit of DIY, just a little bit of fine-tuning. It's not going to take a lot to make that white-ball team very successful very quickly. Bear in mind, they were just knocked out of a T20 World Cup in the semi-finals on a pitch in Ghana that was completely suited to India. India was better, but there's not a lot that he'll need to do. The talent underneath that's coming through is plenty to work with.

It's going to be interesting. He's had a chat with Jos and everything about what that relationship will be like. He completely got the relationship with Ben; it was almost like love at first sight. There's going to be a little bit of that with Jos as well. Jos might just be reinvigorated because you could see in Jos over the last year or two that he just looked a bit jaded. People were scratching their heads, wondering why they weren't doing certain things. This might be the spark if they can get that relationship going. There'll be a few in the white-ball team thinking, "Oh, because he doesn't..." You look at Ole Robinson; if you don't buy into what he wants—the style of cricket or the attitude you bring every day into the training ground and the dressing room—you'll be gone.

He likes you, but exactly, he retired as he said. He's the most laid-back, lovely guy you can talk to, but he's not a soft touch. He's got his things, and there's not a ruthless side to him, but he does what he thinks is best and what he has to do. There's no room for sentimentality. If you're not pulling your weight and you're not here, someone else comes in. Tough boy, but top boy.

That's brilliant, guys. Thank you so much. That's the last of the series, Last of the Summer. It's not really summer, sort of edging into autumn, but it's been a huge pleasure. Loved every minute of it. Cheers, see you next year, or next time. Don't know when it'll be, but there'll be another time.