Dr. Marc Brackett How to Increase Your Emotional Intelligence

Understanding and managing emotions is crucial for a better quality of life.

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Mark Brackett, a professor of psychology at Yale University and the director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He is one of the world's foremost experts on emotions, focusing on what emotions are and how they regulate our relationship to ourselves and others.

Today's discussion delves deeply into how we should think about our emotions and the emotional expressions of others, and when and how we should regulate those emotions. This is a very important aspect of our life because, as we all know, emotions are present with us from the moment we are born until the moment we die. Much like having a body, we need to learn how to work with our emotions in order to have the best quality of life. We all know that we are supposed to pay attention to our emotions, but at the same time, we are often told that we shouldn't take all of our emotions seriously nor should we react to all of our emotions with behaviors. Indeed, that is true.

What's been lacking, however, and what Dr. Mark Brackett finally delivers to us, is a roadmap to think about our emotions in a very structured way. This allows us to engage with our emotions, sometimes shift our emotions, and certainly understand the emotional expressions of others in ways that best serve our quality of life. Today's discussion centers heavily on scientific data that plays out in the real world that we can all use. We talk about conflict resolution, how to think about and work with emotions, bullying both in children and adults, and how to deal with these issues effectively. We also discuss emotional intelligence, which can be increased at any stage of life. By the end of today's discussion, you will be armed with a tremendous amount of new knowledge and many new tools and protocols that you can immediately apply in your life to improve your relationship with yourself and others.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

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And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett, welcome. Thank you, great to be here. I'm excited to talk to you today about many things related to emotions. We hear the word emotions and we have all sorts of ideas about what they are and what they aren't. We also hear about emotional intelligence quite a lot these days, and I have a feeling that the way it's discussed is often not the way it really is. So, to just kick things off, could you clarify for me and for everyone, what is emotional intelligence? What does it pertain to? And then maybe we can use that as a way to drill into the deeper question of what are emotions.

Sure, I think, at the simplest level, it's how we reason with and about our emotions and feelings. That's the simple definition. The way I talk about it is as a set of skills, and we use the acronym RULER to describe those skills. The first is recognizing emotions—so I'm trying to read your facial expression right now, right? Are you interested, or are you bored already? The second is understanding emotions—where are they coming from, like why am I feeling this way, and what's the consequence of that feeling? The third is labeling emotions—being precise with the words that we use to describe our feelings. The fourth is expressing emotions—knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across contexts and cultures. And then the big one is the final R, which is regulating emotions—what are the strategies we use to help us deal with everyday emotions.

So, if I were to take an emotional intelligence test, would it have me looking at pictures of facial expressions? Would it have me reading paragraphs about emotional exchanges and gauging who felt what and why and how? That sort of thing? If you were to take a test from like 20 years ago, yes. We try to be a little bit more innovative now in our measurement of the skills. For example, I just finished with a bunch of colleagues publishing a test of emotion perception, but it's not static images. It's video clips that are around three to four seconds that show subtle emotions. It's about vocal tone, it's about body language, and we're trying to get people to accurately label these.

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Emotional intelligence isn't just about reading facial expressions; it's about understanding emotions through body language, vocal tone, and self-awareness to better navigate social interactions.

Regulating emotions involves various strategies that help us deal with everyday emotions. If one were to take an emotional intelligence test, it might involve looking at pictures of facial expressions or reading paragraphs about emotional exchanges to gauge who felt what, why, and how. However, if you were to take a test from 20 years ago, it would likely be more static. Nowadays, we strive to be more innovative in measuring these skills. For example, a recently published test of emotion perception uses video clips of around three to four seconds that show subtle emotions, focusing on vocal tone and body language. The goal is to get people to accurately label these emotions based on body and voice cues.

When discussing emotional intelligence, it often correlates with one's ability to tolerate and make sense of others' emotions. For instance, someone might be considered to have high emotional intelligence if they can understand that a child is screaming because they feel a certain way, rather than simply labeling the child as a brat. This involves a self-perception aspect as well. The task is to parse one's own emotions finely enough to understand the experience in a third-person way, enabling better regulation of behavior, speech, and actions.

Emotional intelligence encompasses both intra- and interpersonal skills, meaning it involves self-awareness and the recognition of others' emotions. For example, during a conversation, we co-regulate each other's emotions through facial expressions and vocal tones, influencing how we feel. Self-awareness involves recognizing one's own emotions, such as feeling mixed emotions during an interview—excitement and overwhelm. This awareness starts with a general sense of whether one feels pleasant or unpleasant and whether they have a lot of energy or feel depleted, known as core affect. From there, one can ask more specific questions to label their feelings accurately.

Similarly, recognizing others' emotions involves observing facial expressions, body language, and vocal tones to understand their emotional state. This process is not governed by a single brain location but is a network-wide phenomenon involving both brain and body awareness. High emotional intelligence may involve greater body or somatic awareness, but it is not limited to those who are not "in their head." Emotional intelligence is better viewed as a set of discrete skills that come together, rather than a singular construct.

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Emotional intelligence isn't just a single trait; it's a set of skills that includes understanding and labeling emotions, which helps us communicate and connect better.

The phenomenon of emotional intelligence and its relationship with body awareness is intriguing. You mentioned feeling both in the brain and body. To what extent does someone with high emotional intelligence have more or less body awareness or somatic awareness compared to someone who is "in their head"? Put differently, can someone who is very much in their head and has poor body awareness still have high emotional intelligence?

Emotional intelligence is often thought of as a broad construct, but it might be more useful to view it as a set of discrete skills that come together. These skills are not highly correlated, and I prefer to think of them as emotion skills. Within the RULER framework I described, there are subskills, including body awareness. Some people are more cognitive and language-oriented, while others, like many therapists, focus on somatic and sensory aspects. Ultimately, we need to know how we feel, what we want to do with those feelings, and understand how the people we live, love, work, and teach feel too. Language is essential in this process.

Years ago, I attended a personal development course grounded in science and psychology. Each day started with participants describing their feelings without using evaluative terms like "good" or "bad." I found this challenging because I was never trained to use specific language for my feelings or understand what feelings were. Neuroscientists and psychologists are still exploring the nature of feelings and emotions.

When it comes to using language to describe our emotions, how important is it to have a broad range of options? A previous guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, mentioned that some cultures have specific language for particular emotions. For instance, there is a word to describe the feeling of sadness after getting a bad haircut in some cultures, which is incredible. We all know what that feels like, but there isn't a specific word for it in English.

What is the relationship between language labels and emotion? This question leads us into the RULER approach. Recognizing, understanding, and labeling emotions are central to this approach. Like Lisa, I believe in the importance of emotion concepts or categories. For example, if you only have one word for anger, you only recognize one form of anger. However, if you learn words like peeved, irritated, angry, enraged, and livid, you can have rich conversations about these emotions. In schools, I discuss with kids and teachers what makes them feel peeved versus enraged and how these emotions feel in their bodies. While everyone feels emotions differently, having a common language and understanding is crucial for communication.

Currently, we are facing a crisis of anxiety. I believe people often misuse the term anxiety. Anxiety is about uncertainty about the future, different from stress. Distress, a form of stress, occurs when there are too many demands and not enough resources.

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Understanding our emotions deeply and precisely is crucial for effective communication and emotional regulation.

Everybody feels things differently in their bodies, but that really doesn't matter. What matters is that we have a common language and a common understanding of what these emotions are because otherwise, we can't communicate. This is a big deal for me in terms of having a common language within a community to talk about emotion. Right now, we're in a crisis of anxiety. I'm not 100% bought into that because I think people use the word anxiety improperly. Anxiety is about uncertainty about the future, which is different from stress. There are different forms of stress, but distress is usually when you have too many demands and not enough resources. This is different from being overwhelmed, which is my emotion of the year—I'm just saturated and can't even figure out what's going on anymore. This is also different from fear. We call this emotion differentiation or granularity; differentiation is like between emotions, and granularity might be within the emotion.

From my work, especially in corporate training, I often find myself in a room filled with lawyers or executives and ask them how they're feeling. Nobody's really sure how they're feeling. I'll do these little quizzes with them, asking them to define anxiety, stress, pressure, fear, and overwhelmed. The number one response is that they're all the same. I then encourage them to take another few minutes to try to define them. They struggle, saying things like one is internal, one is external, or one is higher energy and lower energy. I get that, but I push them to understand what these concepts mean to them. Finally, we get to the definitions, and I ask them why it matters to understand these differences. After a 45-minute to an hour exercise, they realize that if they're anxious because they're worrying about the future, maybe a breathing exercise won't be as helpful. Instead, they might need a cognitive strategy to address their specific worries.

Helping people make connections between the feeling and the reason for the feeling has been very helpful in teaching them how to regulate their emotions. It's about connecting the feeling and the reason for the feeling, not just labeling the feeling. You need to know why you're feeling a certain way to deal with it effectively.

Regarding emojis, I refer to the "emogif" culture, which I don't think is a real word, but it is now. This culture is a serious problem because it involves too much lumping. In science, you have lumpers and splitters, and both can have fabulous careers. However, if you lump too much or split too much, you create more confusion and often create problems. Emojis lump an incredible set of different continuums within us that we call emotions into a small icon, which can lead to problems not just in communication but in understanding our own emotions.

I haven't done the research, but from my perspective, emojis are not helpful because the goal is to get granular. For example, think about the difference between anger and disappointment. 95% of the people I ask cannot define the difference between these two emotions. They know they're different but can't articulate how. This lack of differentiation can hinder our emotional intelligence and processing.

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Emojis are making us less emotionally intelligent by oversimplifying our feelings.

I think that the use of emojis has degraded our level of emotional intelligence and processing. I mean, I haven't done the research, but from my perspective, it's not helpful because the goal is to get granular. Think about the difference between anger and disappointment. Do you know that 95% of the people that I ask to define those two things cannot do it? Right off the cuff, I'll just say I'm familiar with both of those feelings. I know they're different, but the disappointment piece could be directed outward or inward. I'd have to work systematically through until I found a violation of one or the other, which would take me a few minutes longer than I want this audience to have to wait.

Disappointment is unmet expectations where everything was legit, but it just didn't work out. Anger is perceived injustice, and that's a really important distinction. If you're a parent or someone at work and someone is yelling or screaming, we grossly make mistakes in terms of labeling emotion from behavior. We need to throw that out because there's no correlation between behavior and emotion. For example, I can stomp my feet because I'm feeling sad, as it's more culturally acceptable for me to stomp than to cry. People might ask, "Why are you so angry?" when maybe I'm feeling shame. This was my experience; I was yelling and screaming as a kid because I was being bullied so much. My mother would ask, "Who do you think you are talking to me that way?" and my father would say, "Go to your room." I would wonder if anyone was reading my emotions properly or asking me how I was feeling because I was acting out due to fear and shame. This never happened because my parents, despite loving me, didn't have high emotional intelligence.

Going back to the anger and disappointment distinction, unmet expectations versus perceived injustice is crucial. In terms of strategy, for example, in my other career as a martial arts teacher, I have a fifth-degree black belt in a Korean martial art called Hopo. I was an awkward kid with very low self-esteem. I got into martial arts thinking that getting my yellow belt would make me feel tough and proud, but I failed my yellow belt test. At 13 years old, failing that test was devastating. I went home saying I hated karate and would never go back. Everyone was in an uproar, yelling at me because they were paying for karate.

Let's think about that for a minute. I went to take the test, did my blocks, kicks, and punches the best I could, but the Sensei said, "Mark, just not good enough; you're not ready yet." That's legitimate disappointment. I expected to pass but didn't, so the strategy for that is to get help and show me what I need to do better. On the other hand, some of the kids who bullied me in middle school also took karate. They gave me dirty looks and threatened me, which terrorized me and made me fearful, causing me to fail the test. You can see how I could show up with a particular behavior, and people would attribute emotions to me without understanding my experience. They didn't have the skill to deactivate as a parent or teacher to be present, help me understand my experience, label it, understand where it's coming from, and strategize accordingly.

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Understanding and labeling emotions accurately is crucial for effective support and growth.

The experience of feeling terrorized and fearful can significantly impact one's behavior. For instance, failing a test due to these emotions can lead to people attributing and labeling emotions for you. This often happens because they lack the skill to deactivate as a parent, teacher, or partner, and therefore cannot be present to help you understand and label your experience, understand its origin, and strategize accordingly.

You mentioned that disappointment is when one does everything correctly, giving as much effort as they could, and it still doesn't work out. This contrasts with anger, which is perceived injustice. Reflecting on your experience of not getting your yellow belt, it seems you were experiencing anger, which could be considered inappropriate because you needed to understand the notion of disappointment, but no one had taught it to you. This highlights the importance of knowing how you're feeling, as emotions can be complex and multifaceted, involving disappointment, anger, and embarrassment.

To unpack the situation, it's crucial to understand the real event that happened. For example, if it was a legitimate test and you blocked the punch but didn't have the strength to stand firm, it would be disappointment. A supportive response could be, "Son, you thought your blocks were strong, but they need some work. Let's practice every day after school together so you can pass the yellow belt test." However, if the issue was that bullies were staring at you, causing anxiety and overwhelming feelings that prevented you from blocking effectively, that's a different story. This requires a parent or teacher to differentiate their support and understand the experience, which necessitates trustworthy, loving, and caring relationships. Without such connections, we might misinterpret behavior and fail to address the underlying issues, such as bullying, which needs serious attention.

In today's online world, emojis like downward-facing thumbs, upward-facing thumbs, vomit emojis, and mind-blown emojis are becoming prevalent. These symbols may be influencing our understanding and expression of emotions in ways we are only beginning to realize.

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Online interactions often lack the empathy and nuance of face-to-face communication, leading to harmful behavior and misunderstandings.

Teachers need to differentiate their support to truly understand the experiences of their students. This requires building trustworthy, loving, and caring relationships with everyone involved. Without these connections, it's challenging to comprehend how people are feeling, and we might misinterpret behaviors. For instance, a child being bullied at school needs serious attention rather than a dismissive response like "go to your room."

The use of emojis online, such as downward-facing thumbs or vomit emojis, can cause more harm than we realize. While it might be fun to use these for casual communication, they are not effective for serious interactions. People, especially kids, might experience self-criticism when they receive negative emoji feedback. This issue extends to adults as well, who can be devastated by negative comments on social media platforms like Instagram.

Interestingly, this behavior is also observed in the academic community, particularly on platforms like Twitter (now X). Academics, who usually critique each other's work with intellectual nuance and care, sometimes behave very differently online. They might swear, neglect punctuation, and act in a very activated manner. This regression in behavior, where kids act like adults and adults act like children, is concerning. The lack of face-to-face connection seems to strip away the etiquette usually observed in anonymous reviews, leading to a deprivation of important social features online.

This phenomenon was highlighted during a speech at Twitter (now X) about five years ago, following the infamous incident where Mariah Carey’s performance went wrong on New Year's Eve. The response online was overwhelmingly negative, with millions of people ripping the talented diva to shreds. This reaction made me curious about the type of people who comment online, suggesting a possible bias where those who feel protected by anonymity are more likely to post harsh comments.

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Online cruelty often reflects the pain of the commenter more than the target.

She made an error; there was something wrong with the mic, and it wasn't working the way she wanted it to. She decided to leave, saying, "I'm out of here, I'm not singing." You should have seen the reaction—millions and millions of comments poured in. I won't repeat what people said because it was really disgusting. I got curious, thinking, "You've won 15 Grammy Awards; this must really sting for you." Maybe one post like that existed, but it makes you wonder about the type of person interested in commenting.

We may have a bias there. People feel protected, especially when it's a more famous person. In politics, people are very clear about their feelings, and politicians open themselves up to it. Public-facing people, in general, do, but politicians, in particular, seem to invite it. We give the general public a pass to say almost anything about them, but it's not pretty and not emotionally intelligent.

I always ask, "What's your goal here?" Being nasty seems evacuative. I think, "Gosh, what they must feel inside to say those things can't be good," but maybe it feels good to them. I don't know. I don't think I've ever made a negative comment. If I have, someone can call me out on it. Hopefully, it was in sarcasm with a friend, and they were okay with it. I don't know what internal emotional or psychological state it would take to say something cruel online.

In my earlier research with Facebook, we analyzed millions of posts. People can be intentionally mean and hurtful, wanting to rip others to shreds and instill fear. It's very hard to disentangle that. We found that I could say, "Nice shirt," and it might mean "nice shirt," or it might mean I'm making fun of your shirt. That's the problem with social media posts; we don't really know because the person receiving it has a story.

One challenge we found was getting posts taken down. It was hard to have an objective criterion of what was painful to a person. We tried to help the person receiving the content communicate with the person who posted it to get them to take it down. It worked well if you taught a teenager to say, "Hey, Andrew, that comment you made was hurtful. Would you please take it down?" We were more likely to get people to take it down. Experimental research showed that if we let people go on their own devices, it tended to be more retaliatory, like, "Who the heck do you think you are?" That did not motivate the person to take it down. Even meeting gross behavior with compassion can be helpful.

Can we provide a counterexample for anger versus disappointment on the positive valence side? Sure. What's a positive set of feelings that people often conflate, like happiness and contentment? That's a tough one. I'm getting Fs all around. Good thing I became a biologist. Ecstatic and elated? Yes, this is why I do what I do. I'm good at this.

When you think about happiness, it's usually about achieving something. "I'm going to be happy when..." Contentment is the opposite. Contentment is everything is just great as it is. I feel complete; I have enough. Part of my argument against happiness research is that we don't spend enough time helping people strive for contentment. We push people to strive for happiness, which research shows can backfire. If you're waking up every day saying, "What am I going to do to be happy?" chances are it won't work out a lot, and that backfires to create more despair. Sorry to interrupt, but as soon as you describe contentment...

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Chasing happiness can backfire; strive for contentment and appreciate the present instead.

When you think about happiness, it’s usually associated with achieving something. You might say, "I'm going to be happy when this happens," or "this will bring me happiness." However, contentment is the opposite. Contentment means everything is just great as it is; you feel complete and have enough. Part of my argument against the happiness research is that we don't spend enough time helping people strive for contentment. Instead, we push people to strive for happiness, which research shows can backfire. If you're waking up every day asking, "What am I going to do to be happy?" chances are it won't work out often, and that can lead to more despair.

As soon as you describe contentment that way, it makes me imagine waking up and, rather than thinking about what needs to be done and the things I want to achieve, I might pay attention to how good it feels to have gotten some sleep. For example, I sleep well most nights, and what a privilege that is. I might also feel the comfort of the comforter and the mattress for a moment before barging into the day to chase happiness.

Exactly. The idea that we have to be happy all the time is also ridiculous. I mean, I'm a neurotic professor; I'm never happy. It's tough. Also, given my dispositional affect, which is more on the lower energy side and contented with a little anxiety, when I'm around people who are high energy and pleasant all the time, I have a difficult time. It feels overwhelming and smothering. It's like, "Stop being so happy all the time."

Here's where I get to make a joke about East Coast Schools versus West Coast Schools. Maybe if you come West, that will change, or maybe you're right where you belong at the phenomenal University that is Yale. East Coast Universities are amazing, Midwest Universities are amazing, and West Coast Universities are amazing. They have different perceived temperaments and styles, just look at the walking speeds, not just the weather.

You raise a very important point. We have a member of our podcast team who is always in a great mood. His constant good mood is a reminder for me to be in a better mood. I'm not moody, and I don't change moods quickly, but I wouldn't say my disposition is to be like Tigger, happy all the time. His energy doesn't drain me, but it makes me wish I was like him. That's okay. Part of being emotionally intelligent with colleagues, romantic partners, or children is picking up on that. Knowing that about you makes me think differently about your needs.

For me, I wake up every morning having an existential crisis, wondering what I'm doing with my life. I think about the papers I need to publish, the book I need to finish, and the team I need to run. When I'm doing one thing, I feel like I should be doing another. That's just who I am. I've tried everything, and that's my operating system. Knowing that about myself is useful because it helps me find strategies that work for me.

Going back to the happiness thing, because I'm also introverted, when I'm around extroverts a lot, I'm drained. After an intense conversation like this, I'm not going to go to a sports bar.

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Knowing your introversion or extroversion helps you find the right strategies for your happiness and productivity.

As I was working on another book, I found myself constantly thinking about the next chapter while still in the middle of the current one. I had to remind myself, "Mark, give yourself permission to be with this freaking chapter." It's okay to focus on one thing and not worry about the future. This self-awareness is useful because it helps me find the strategies that work for me.

Knowing that about myself is useful because it helps me find the strategies that work for me. Going back to the happiness thing, it's because I'm also introverted. When I'm around extroverts a lot, I'm drained. After an intense conversation like this, I'm not going to go to a sports bar and have a beer and watch the game. That would make me feel burnt out. My dream would be to leave here, take a hot yoga class, go for a walk, have a glass of wine, maybe by myself or with a friend, and then end the day. All those things are readily available here, and we can point you in the right direction.

The introversion-extroversion bit is going to prick up people's ears; it certainly did mine. I like time alone, and I also like time alone in the presence of many people. In fact, I get my best work done either alone in nature or in Manhattan, where there are people around me, but I'm completely isolated. So, how should we think about introversion and extroversion? These terms get thrown around a lot in popular culture. Are there solid scientific studies that support that introversion can best be defined as blank and extroversion as blank? I'm guessing there's a range; it can't be two bins.

For some people, it's very clear—they are a clear-traded introvert or endlessly extroverted. Research shows that creative people tend to be both high introverts and high extroverts. They're introverts when doing their art and extroverts when selling it. This can be hard for some artists because many are introspective and struggle with being extroverted. You're lucky if you are traded in both directions.

The easiest way to think about it is as a proclivity—how you want to use your energy. The introvert is more a container; they want to contain their energy, be in small groups, and prefer less frenetic environments. The extrovert has a proclivity for more sensation-seeking and larger social groups. It's a preference. I always say I'm an introvert with pretty good social skills. I can appear extroverted, and most people think I'm outgoing, but I don't even like people that much. You seem very outgoing, but it's not my natural state. At a party, I struggle with what to do.

When you say you don't necessarily like people that much, I realize you're joking. It doesn't mean you dislike people; it's just that being around many people doesn't draw you to want to get to know them all. An extrovert, on the other hand, really likes forming and engaging in new relationships, old relationships, all relationships. If you're running a campaign to be mayor, you want to hire an extroverted PR person because they're comfortable talking to people. The introvert would be better at doing the accounting and planning.

We've done research on this. Even for fun with my students, I would have them take valid measures of introversion and extroversion, score them into groups, and have the really extroverted group and the really introverted group plan.

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Extroverts thrive on social interactions and are great for roles that require constant engagement, while introverts excel in planning and detail-oriented tasks.

Extroverts seem to really enjoy forming and engaging in new relationships, as well as maintaining old ones. For instance, if you're running a campaign to become the mayor of your town, you would likely want to hire an extroverted PR person. An extroverted person would be ideal for marketing because they are comfortable talking to people and would be out there actively engaging with the community. On the other hand, an introvert would be better suited for tasks like accounting and planning.

In research conducted with students, valid measures of introversion and extroversion were used to group them accordingly. When tasked with planning a party, the extroverted group envisioned bonfires, beer, and loud music on the beach. In contrast, the introverted group focused on details like having good napkins, a small number of attendees, and quiet music. This highlights the inherent differences in how extroverts and introverts approach social activities.

When I think of throwing a great party, I enjoy inviting a lot of people and then stepping back to watch friends who didn't know each other start to interact. However, if I have to communicate directly with too many people, I feel drained and might retreat to a room to take a nap.

Rick Rubin, renowned for his creative insights, once mentioned that Tom Petty was an extreme introvert who mostly wrote music, read books, and interacted with a small inner circle. The idea of leaving the house was overwhelming for him. In contrast, other famous people, as described by Rick, go out specifically to seek fame and feel isolated if they don't get the attention they crave. This highlights a kind of extroversion requirement for some individuals.

Life might be harder for extroverts in the long run because they constantly seek social interaction. However, extroverts tend to achieve more success as they are more willing to ask for opportunities, leading to quicker raises and promotions. In educational settings, it's important for teachers to pay attention to the personalities of their students. Introverts often have great ideas but are not eager to raise their hands, so teachers should avoid only calling on the talkative extroverts to ensure they don't miss out on valuable insights.

When teaching, I am somewhat reluctant to cold call on students because it can be terrifying for them. I set expectations around participation because it frustrates me when the talkative extrovert always dominates the discussion. Good instructional practices can help balance this dynamic.

The intersection of personality and emotional intelligence is another interesting aspect. People often confuse these traits. For example, I used to think that being high in neuroticism, which means being more emotionally volatile, indicated low emotional intelligence. However, research shows no significant correlation between personality traits and emotional intelligence. This suggests that even someone who is emotionally volatile can possess high emotional intelligence.

=> 00:48:57

Emotional intelligence isn't tied to personality traits; even the emotionally volatile can master it through constant practice.

People often confuse emotional intelligence with personality traits. For example, I used to confuse them myself when I was younger before I studied the topic. I am high in neuroticism, meaning I am more mercurial in terms of worrying about things, being fine, and then worrying again. I always assumed that someone who is high in neuroticism or emotionally volatile had low emotional intelligence. After conducting research, I found there is pretty much no correlation between personality traits and emotional intelligence.

Why is that? If you are someone who is more even-keeled, you might not have as many opportunities to regulate your emotions. However, if you get triggered, you lack experience, making it harder for you. On the other hand, someone like me is practicing emotional regulation all the time. I might be in a bad mood but have to give a meeting or presentation, so I am constantly figuring out how to deal with my emotions. This is why personality traits and emotional intelligence are separate concepts.

Additionally, knowing your personality traits can be extraordinarily helpful for choosing the best strategies to regulate your emotions. For instance, I was traveling in Australia recently and gave a speech about an hour from Melbourne. I preferred to stay in the city and took the train out. After the speech, the convenor offered to drive me back to the hotel, which was the worst thing for me. I had a full day of presentations and wanted to decompress. However, I felt bad and agreed. The guy talked nonstop for an hour, and by the time I got back to my hotel, I felt like I was going to have a nervous breakdown. This experience annoyed me because I didn't practice what I teach: "Mark, know thyself." I should have politely declined and explained that I needed to rest and prepare for the next day.

This example highlights the importance of knowing yourself, your personality traits, and how they relate to your selection of strategies. Introversion and extroversion alone can significantly impact your choices.

By the way, my joke about driving on the wrong side of the road was meant to acknowledge that we drive on the wrong side for Australians and those in the UK.

=> 00:52:46

Texting is killing our emotional intelligence and real communication skills.

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Text messaging is an interesting example of modern communication. Depending on how many people have access to your phone number, it can either feel like a wonderful way to fill gaps in your day, such as on trains, while in transit, or walking to the car. However, for introverts, it might feel inundating and overwhelming. Extroverts might love to text message, enjoying the constant communication at all hours of the day and night, while introverts might be less enthusiastic about it.

I also bring this up because I want to protect the variable latency to respond to text option that I've tried to exercise in my life, but it doesn't seem to work well. If I walk up to you and say hello, and you wait 10 minutes to respond, it might seem rude or strange. However, if I text you hello and don't hear back right away, I might just think you're busy. This discrepancy in response expectations can lead to potential miscommunication and misunderstanding.

Interestingly, introverts might find texting more comfortable because it involves less stimulation. However, the problem with text messaging is that it decreases emotional intelligence since you can't communicate the same way through a text as you can in person. Texting has become more routine and has crossed lines of formality and informality, affecting our ability to communicate verbally and in writing. Research shows that teens now prefer texting over face-to-face communication, which isn't helpful for building strong relationships.

When my father passed away, I received numerous text messages expressing condolences from friends I had known for 20-30 years. It felt strange that they didn't pick up the phone to offer support. One of my closest friends didn't even text me directly but instead texted my assistant. This experience highlighted how disconnected and alienated people can feel in today's world, exacerbated by the reliance on text messaging.

=> 00:56:51

Texting is fine for quick messages, but it can't replace the intimacy and connection of a phone call or face-to-face conversation.

There were things that I was doing as a teenager that I'm sure adults thought were weird. Reflecting on this, I realize how disconnected, alienated, and lonely people feel these days, and how that’s not necessarily going to help make things better. I have an example: when my father passed away a number of years ago, I received all these text messages saying, "I'm so sorry for your loss," from people who I thought were really good friends of mine, friends of 20 or 30 years. I wondered why they wouldn't pick up the phone to listen to my voice and ask, "What can I do to support you right now?" It felt so strange. One of my closest friends didn’t even text me directly; she texted my assistant to tell me she loved me. I found this really weird and felt the need to pick up the phone and ask, "What is happening right now?" People have preconceived notions; maybe she thought I was overwhelmed and needed space, but at the same time, a phone call or a voice message with some options would have been appreciated.

I had one friend who said, "Mark, I know you're going through a lot right now. I just want you to know that if you want to talk, call me. If you want to text, text. If you want me to come out and stay with you for a couple of days, I'm there." That was exactly what I needed to hear—someone offering options and support. However, we are so hesitant these days, which makes me fearful about the future of our relationships in general. Texting is so common and has been used to communicate so many different forms of human emotion in a broad format. How much can you really put into a text? Some people use voice texts, which are enriched compared to regular texts, unless the text is carefully written out and punctuated. Most people, including myself, don't put that much care into texting. Texting is short-form communication, and while audio notes or voice memos seem like a step up, they still don't replace the intimacy of a phone call or a handwritten card or letter, which have become the pinnacle of care and expression.

Text messaging is fine for quick communications like, "Can you please pick this up?" but when it replaces intimacy and building strong bonds, that's where the problem lies. I didn't outright set this rule in my relationships, but with my co-workers, family members, and others, there's an unspoken rule: we don't argue over text. It's not cool, but people do it a lot because it's easier. You don't have to feel the feelings; you can be psychologically distant and say what you want without facing an uncomfortable response. This is problematic because there is neural real estate specifically dedicated to processing human faces and emotions, which is diminishing.

A study on kids at camps showed that those without their phones improved in their emotion perception skills after a couple of weeks. This highlights the need for more face-to-face time for both children and adults. Could we talk about the energy-pleasantness axes? Sure, and create a mental picture for people. If listeners or viewers have a pen or pencil and paper, they could map this out, but it's very easy to imagine in your mind. On the vertical axis, we have energy, and on the horizontal axis, we have pleasantness. This ties back to something else we discussed earlier.

=> 01:01:06

Kids at camp without phones improve their emotion perception skills—face-to-face time matters!

A study was conducted on kids in camps where they were randomly assigned to be with or without their phones. The results showed that after a couple of weeks, kids who had their phones decreased in their emotion perception skills. This highlights the importance of giving children and adults more face-to-face time.

Now, let's discuss the energy-pleasantness axes. This concept can be visualized easily. On the horizontal axis, we have pleasantness, which is not about goodness or badness but rather about how pleasant or unpleasant one feels in the moment. This includes feelings like whether you want to approach your day or avoid it, and whether you feel safe and comfortable or uncomfortable. From the moment we wake up until we go to bed, this axis is activated.

On the vertical axis, we have energy or activation. The technical term is arousal, but energy is a more relatable term. It measures how energized or deactivated you are, encompassing both mental and physical energy. When these two axes intersect, they create what we call the mood meter, which has four quadrants.

The first quadrant is high pleasantness and high energy, represented by yellow. Emotions in this quadrant include happy, excited, elated, ecstatic, and optimistic. The second quadrant is low energy and pleasant, represented by green, which includes calm, content, tranquil, peaceful, and relaxed emotions.

On the unpleasant side, we have the blue quadrant, which is low energy and unpleasant. Emotions here include sad, down, disappointed, hopeless, and despair. The red quadrant represents high energy and unpleasant emotions, such as anger and anxiety.

This tool is incredibly helpful for people, including preschoolers and CEOs, to understand their complex inner lives. By identifying which quadrant they are in, individuals can better understand their emotions and decide on appropriate actions. For example, recognizing if you are in the yellow or red quadrant can help you understand why you feel a certain way, such as being about to take a test or go into a difficult meeting.

This understanding leads to the R of RULER, which stands for self-awareness. Recognizing where you are in the emotional space allows you to ask yourself why you feel that way and what might be happening. This precision helps you decide if the emotion needs to be expressed or kept to yourself and whether you need support or can handle it on your own.

A great story illustrating this involves a visit to a school where the RULER program is implemented. During a check-in, a little boy indicated he was in the blue quadrant, meaning he felt unpleasant and low in energy. This simple acknowledgment can be the first step in addressing and managing emotions effectively.

=> 01:05:13

Even a 5-year-old can teach us that emotions are temporary and don't always need fixing.

Feeling a little uneasy can be helpful because it allows you to delve into the E and the R of RULER. This involves asking yourself: Is this an emotion I need to express or keep to myself? Does this emotion require help or support, or am I okay with what I'm feeling? I have a great story about this. We are often born to be fixers, especially in roles such as teachers or parents. I visited a school where my program, also called RULER, is implemented. We are now in about 5,000 schools across the United States. During my visit to a kindergarten, I conducted a check-in, and a little boy mentioned he was in the blue, which means feeling unpleasant and low in energy. Naturally, I felt terrible and wanted to fix this situation for him. However, one of the rules of RULER is that you don't fix people's feelings.

I asked the boy if he needed a strategy, and he replied, "No." Curious, I asked why he didn't need a strategy. He responded, "Because I know it's impermanent." This was a revelation. It made me realize that perhaps the next generations are far more emotionally intelligent than ours, especially if they receive direct instruction. My vision for the world is that everyone gets an emotional education. The boy understood that his unpleasant feeling was temporary and didn't need fixing. He knew he was in a funk but had already experienced that emotions are ephemeral. This insight from a five-year-old was mind-blowing.

This brings up an important question: How do we resolve the contradiction between the message to feel our feelings versus recognizing that feelings are transient, as this five-year-old demonstrated? In the psychological and wellness space, we often hear that feelings are just feelings—they are transient and represent various things, from biological underpinnings to childhood trauma and genetics. Should we feel our feelings to best recognize them? Is there any value in suppressing our feelings, or does that tend to make them grow? Research suggests that suppression tends to make emotions grow, especially in Western culture. Finding ways to reappraise emotions tends to be more helpful.

For 20 years, I ran a center for emotional intelligence and taught these skills. I often encountered resistance, whether from hedge fund managers, school superintendents, or parents. Some fathers would tell me they could never share their vulnerabilities with their children, fearing it would make them seem weak. This mindset about feelings needs to be addressed. People have feelings about their feelings, sometimes called meta-emotions or meta-feelings. My recent research focuses on something I call permission to feel. Given my own rough childhood, which included abuse, I understand the importance of this concept.

=> 01:09:11

Give yourself and others the permission to feel—it's the key to emotional well-being.

You shared your whole story about being bullied as a kid, and I would never in my wildest dreams ever share with my own son that I was bullied. When I asked for more details, the guy admitted he was afraid his son would think he was weak. This highlights a mindset about feelings that we need to address. People have feelings about their feelings, sometimes referred to as meta-emotions or meta-feelings. Often, it's as simple as thinking happy is good and anger is bad.

My recent research has focused on something I call permission to feel. You know a little about my own story; I had a rough childhood that included abuse and a lot of bullying. My parents loved me, but my mother was very anxious and lacked strategies to cope, often saying she was having a nervous breakdown and locking herself in her room for hours. My father, who we might call toxically masculine today, would tell me to toughen up. He even once said, "Son, I used to beat kids up like you," thinking it was a message I needed to hear to toughen up. It wasn't emotionally intelligent parenting, but he did love me; he just didn't know how to parent in that way.

Think about that: bullied, shame, fear, abused, with a mother having nervous breakdowns and a father telling me to toughen up. What happens? You suppress, deny, ignore, eat, and engage in all kinds of weird behaviors because you have nowhere to go with your feelings. I fear that too many people feel that way right now, and I have good research to show that. You've read my book, so you know about my Uncle Marvin. He was a middle school teacher who, by some magic, stayed with my family one summer when I was 12. He noticed something in my facial expression and body language and knew something was off. He was the first adult who sat with me and said, "Hey Mark, how are you feeling?"

I don't know if it was his facial expression, body language, or vocal tone, but that was the opener for me. I told him, "I'm not doing so well. I don't really like life very much. I'm scared." He didn't say he was having a nervous breakdown or that I needed to toughen up. He said, "We're going to get through this. I got you. I'm with you." This experience made me realize that while skill-building is important, we also need to give ourselves, our colleagues, our partners, and our children the permission to feel.

My research shows that only about a third of adults felt they had someone when they were young who created the conditions for them to have permission to feel. That means 70% of people in our corporations, schools, and homes did not have that. You wonder what the characteristics are of these people who provide permission to feel. The characteristics of the Uncle Marvins or Aunt Maras, or even a colleague at work, can be described as having three main traits.

First, they are non-judgmental. When we think about the people who gave us permission to feel, they just had no judgment. They let us express our emotions without criticism.

=> 01:13:35

People crave non-judgmental, empathetic listeners who actively care—it's that simple.

The discussion involves a bunch of subcategories, so I won't acknowledge that empathically attuned. I'm guessing that they have themselves some high emotional intelligence. The third is, gosh, my hope is that there be a high situational awareness. Your uncle needed to see something subtle in your facial expression, or maybe not so subtle, but everyone else was missing it. To be able to detect that there was something that really needed attention was like a silent cry for help. You're getting at something really nuanced, which is why you're a scientist too.

The three broad characteristics that show up cross-culturally are: non-judgmental, empathic and compassionate, and active listening. When we think about the people who gave us permission to feel, they just had no judgment; they let me be who I am. Empathy is kind of coupled with compassion, which is a different form of empathy. People want to be around those who don't judge them, who listen actively, and show that they care. It's that simple.

I do a lot of public speaking, and my new strategy involves conducting surveys where I will be presenting. This allows me to present the audience with their own data. For instance, I was giving a speech to a group of high school parents, showing them the survey results they filled out. The results highlighted non-judgmental, active listening, empathy, and compassion. Just like my national study, a third of them said yes, while two-thirds said no. During the presentation, a mom impulsively jumped out of her seat, saying she was having an epiphany. She realized her daughter had an "Uncle Marvin" figure in her life, but her son did not. She was determined to find someone for her son.

Interestingly, it seemed like she was outsourcing the emotional support, looking for a karate teacher or a feelings mentor. This made me ponder what people are so afraid of when it comes to feelings, whether their own or their children's. I push on this in my research to understand the resistance. Adults today face two main barriers when it comes to giving others permission to feel.

The first barrier is time. People often say they don't have the time to be non-judgmental, which is ironic because being judgmental is far more energetically costly. The second barrier is skills. Some parents fear asking their children how they feel because they believe they won't be able to handle the response. This fear leads to children suppressing their emotions because their parents haven't developed the skills needed to co-regulate and support them.

My mission is to ensure that everyone receives an emotional education from preschool through high school, continuing into college, the workforce, and as we grow older. As a 54-year-old leading a large group, I experienced a complete meltdown during COVID-19. I struggled with leading through Zoom meetings and other challenges, which was a real wake-up call.

=> 01:17:47

We need to teach emotional intelligence from preschool through adulthood because everyone deserves the skills to handle their feelings and support others.

Would you rather your son or daughter suppress their fears or whatever they're feeling because you haven't developed the skills that you need to help co-regulate and support them? This is, again, going back to my Mission Vision. We need a world where everyone gets an emotion education from preschool to high school, and it has to continue in college, in the workforce, and as we grow older. As a 54-year-old person leading a large group, I had a complete meltdown during COVID. I didn't know how to lead during that time, trying to figure it out with Zoom meetings and other challenges.

My mother-in-law got stuck with me, which was a real wake-up call in terms of relationship building. It was really rough for me. She came for a wedding—one of my colleagues got married on March 3rd, 2020. My mother-in-law is from Panama, and all flights to Panama got canceled by March 13th and didn't open until September. We had this 81-year-old lovely woman living with us for eight months.

One quick side story: it was getting really challenging. I was working from home, and my mother-in-law was there. She wanted me to make her cappuccino every morning, which I liked to do for the first week. But after the fourth month, I told her to learn how to use the machine. She was afraid of the machine, and I tried to help her, but she insisted I make the coffee. One night at dinner, she asked me in Spanish, "Are you really the director of the center for emotional intelligence?" I replied, "Not tonight," because it was a mess.

Despite my day job running a center for emotional intelligence, I am a human being with strong emotions. I needed to cultivate a whole new set of regulation strategies to deal with that new aspect of my life. Thinking about people who can help us by asking the right questions or how we can ask people the right questions to understand their experiences is crucial.

I recall numerous instances in my life where an activity seemed to be a prerequisite for any conversation, let alone about emotions. I currently have a very good relationship with my father, but there was a time when we had to talk about science or watches as an entry point to any conversation. We've both done a lot of work, and now we enjoy a very close relationship.

What you're describing makes me realize that no matter who anybody is, their age, or their background, as human beings, we don't just need permission but should think about having conversations about how others feel. Some might think, "Oh boy, so we're just going to sit around and talk about our feelings?" My short response is yes. When you don't do that, you might find yourself not participating in activities with that person or potentially with anyone.

It's not just about education; it's about a practice of giving ourselves and others permission to have a conversation about what one is feeling. This exercise helps both people explore that in the correct way. The RULER approach is one strategy, though correctness is a tricky term.

=> 01:21:53

Understanding your emotions can transform your relationships and your life.

When you don't engage in open communication about feelings, it can lead to a lack of participation in activities with others, potentially isolating oneself. While it’s extreme to say people become so unpleasant that they lose all friends, the underlying issue is that it’s not just about education but about practicing giving ourselves and others permission to have conversations about feelings. This practice allows both parties to explore emotions in the correct way, such as using the RULER approach. Correctness in this context is tricky because you can't predict how people will respond, but it’s essential to try.

For instance, my father and I ended up having an excellent relationship, but it wasn’t always easy. After my mother died and he remarried, his new wife called me, distressed about his constant anger. She was considering leaving him, which would have complicated our lives further. So, I took my father to a local coffee shop to talk. He repeatedly said he "couldn't take it anymore," but it took a while to understand what he meant. Eventually, it became clear that he was jealous of the time his wife spent babysitting her grandchildren because he wanted her attention.

When I pointed out that he might be feeling jealous, he initially resisted the idea but then broke down crying. This was the first time he had awareness of his emotional experience. He was emotionally illiterate and didn’t know what he was feeling, which led to his acting out. Once he understood that his wife’s need to support her grandchildren made him feel neglected, we had a pathway to help him regulate his emotions. Two months later, his wife called to say he had changed significantly, illustrating the power of emotional self-awareness. Once you know how you’re feeling, it can be liberating, and you can figure out what to do with those feelings.

This story underscores the importance of therapy and emotional self-awareness. In the past, surveys at Stanford showed that only a small percentage of students were willing to seek therapy during emotionally trying times. Nowadays, that number has increased significantly, reflecting a positive shift in attitudes towards mental health. As a professor at Yale teaching emotional intelligence, I often encounter resistance, but the overall trend is encouraging.

=> 01:25:54

Students today are more open to seeking therapy, but many still struggle with envy masked as stress.

Therapy, fortunately, in my opinion, has seen a significant shift in acceptance over the years. There was a survey done, I believe at Stanford, asking students how willing they would be to seek therapy if they were dealing with an emotionally trying time. This survey, conducted in the early and mid-90s, revealed that the numbers were very low, somewhere in the teens or 20% of students. However, nowadays, the willingness to seek therapy is in excess of 80 or 90%, which is very high.

As a professor at Yale, teaching courses on emotional intelligence, I often encounter resistance from students who are more focused on achieving high grades rather than developing emotional skills. They want to memorize facts, like the theory written in 1990 by Mayer and Salovey, rather than engage in self-development. Despite initial resistance, after about a month, students usually buy into the course's objectives.

I incorporate research into my courses, asking students to fill out surveys on how they're feeling every class. The number one emotion reported is stress. I define stress as having too many demands and not enough resources. To better understand their feelings, I have my students journal about their stress. Interestingly, after qualitative analysis of their journals, the predominant emotion was not stress but envy. Students compared themselves to others, feeling envious of others' wealth, connections, or physical attributes.

This insight led me to discuss with the counseling department about the need for an "Envy Reduction Program." Although it wasn't a popular conversation, it highlighted the importance of helping people learn how to manage their emotions. While mindfulness is currently popular and beneficial, it isn't always effective for chronic envy. Addressing envy requires more than just breathing exercises; it involves reconstructing one's mindset and relationships.

The joke about envy reduction is something I take very seriously. We did a four-episode series with Dr. Paul Conti, a world-renowned psychiatrist, who discussed how envy is at the root of much of the evil in the world, both on small and large scales. Envy contributes significantly to the despair people feel, yet it is a word that isn't discussed enough. Dr. Conti described envy as a natural human emotion in some cases, but it is crucial to address it constructively. I will certainly pass along these insights to him.

=> 01:30:10

Envy is a natural emotion, but unchecked, it can lead to stress and resentment; instead, use it as a tool for growth and self-awareness.

Dr. Kti, a world expert in psychiatry and one of the very best psychiatrists globally by many accounts, has discussed extensively on various platforms, including my friend Lex Friedman's podcast, that envy is at the root of much of the evil in the world, both on small and large scales. He explains that envy contributes significantly to the despair many people feel. Despite its negative connotation, Dr. Kti describes envy as a natural human emotion in some cases.

I had no idea, and perhaps Dr. Kti knows through his clinical work, but I will certainly pass along the observation that so much of the stress experienced by good people, including students, may stem from envy—the wish to have more of what someone else has. This often leads to feelings of inadequacy, which ties back to the concept of contentment. If one wants to combat envy, it might be perceived as a call for people to be content with less, which is not desirable. We want ambitious people in the world, those with a growth mindset, yet we also don't want people to be stressed and pervaded by envy.

Envy, like all emotions, is not inherently bad. Emotions become problematic when they are intense and of long duration. Momentary envy can be a motivator for growth, as seen when one admires someone else's skills and strives to improve. However, envy that leads to resentment can be pathological. This differentiation is crucial for self-awareness and emotional granularity.

Emotions like anger are also not bad; they are justified when we are treated unfairly. The key is not to be dysregulated by these emotions. For instance, I have developed a new relationship with my anxiety. I acknowledge it, welcome it, and manage it without letting it overpower me. This approach allows me to function effectively even when anxious, such as when giving speeches.

Conflict resolution is another area I think about often, especially in emotional contexts. It reminds me of a situation where a woman sought help for her child instead of intervening herself. This highlights the emerging field of feelings mentors, which could be beneficial. This goal aligns with my broader aspirations, emphasizing the importance of emotional regulation and mentorship.

=> 01:34:18

Empathy without emotional intelligence can diminish our ability to truly help others.

The first time you know it's like all of a sudden that my despair turns into optimism and hope. Regulation conflict resolution is something that I think a lot about in any situation where emotions are discussed. This brings me back to an earlier situation you were talking about, where a woman said she was going to find someone to help her child intervene. You were thinking, well, why not you? His feelings, me, she was going to go, you know, be his feelings mentor, right? Exactly. Now, there's a whole field of feelings mentors cropping up, which actually wouldn't be such a bad thing. Hey, that's another one of my goals, so it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Say it louder, I like that goal.

When we were talking about that, one of the things that surfaced was this notion that some people have a natural empathic attunement. If the emotion that the other person is feeling is a negative one and it's about us or about them, as a consequence, we're not able to really be present to help the person the way that you helped your dad. For instance, he was frustrated with his wife. Had he been frustrated with you, it might be a little bit more challenging to say, "Hey, well Dad, maybe what you're experiencing in terms of your frustration with me is actually blank." Because you're now in a tether with them. To what extent is empathic attunement a positive trait? Are there people who are better at turning it off or directing it in appropriate ways than others?

In a previous podcast that I did recently, somebody sitting right there in that chair told me, and I believe them, that I am codependent. It's the first time anyone's ever called me that. She defined it, spelled it out, and in a very harmonious way explained a huge array of challenges that I've experienced. To the point where I've been learning more about codependency. Not easy for me to say now, interdependent, interdependent. Certainly, depending on others is important, but certain patterns fall well under the umbrella of codependency. I was like, okay, and even now I'm uncomfortable talking about it, which is part of the reason I'm trying to desensitize myself to the word itself, let alone drill into the process of getting through it.

The point being that if our emotions are so strongly tethered to others, we see that as empathy. We label that typically as positive, but it really diminishes our ability to be there for people if their emotions are negative and about us. I disagree. Great, fantastic, because that's empathy without emotional intelligence. I work with a lot of doctors. I've done quite a bit of work with the cancer hospital at Yale, it's called Milo. Doctors have been taught from early on to leave their empathy at the door, and I challenge that. When you're a patient with cancer knowing that you may pass, the last thing you want is an unempathic doctor. You want a relationship with someone who's treating you. The assumption is that you get lost in your empathy, and people have written about that, and it's true. There is overzealous empathy; you can have compassion fatigue. But again, it's in the absence of emotional intelligence.

What do I mean? Well, part of emotional intelligence is regulation. If I see my work as a cancer doctor as helping people have the best last few months of their lives, that's a really interesting way to think about it. As I'm in a relationship with my patient, my mindset is I've come to the understanding that my job is to help people pass. I could go down a rabbit hole of despair because everyone potentially may pass, or I can see this as I'm giving someone a gift. I'm giving them a gift of my presence, I'm giving them a gift of them feeling held and cared for. To me, it's all about the framing of empathy. Yes, of course, you can lose yourself in someone else's shoes, but that's not emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is saying, you know what, I'm noticing myself getting lost in your feelings, I need to pull back a little bit.

Do we know where in the brain empathy resides? We hear so much about mirror neurons, but I think for those of us that have been in neuroscience and psychology long enough, we acknowledge that there are appropriate conversations that include the words mirror neurons. However, they've been made out to be much more than perhaps they are in terms of empathy, and they've become sort of the default description for all forms of empathy and understanding.

=> 01:38:33

Emotional intelligence isn't about getting lost in feelings; it's about recognizing them, showing compassion, and helping others find clarity.

To me, it's all about the framing of empathy. Yes, of course, you can lose yourself in someone else's shoes, but that's not emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is saying, "You know what, I'm noticing myself getting lost in your feelings. I need to pull back a little bit."

Do we know where in the brain empathy resides? We hear so much about mirror neurons, but for those of us in neuroscience and psychology, we acknowledge that while there are appropriate conversations that include the words mirror neurons, they have been made out to be much more than they are in terms of empathy. They have become the default description for all forms of empathy and understanding, and it's not just that. So, what do we know about the brain science of empathy? I don't know much about that, to be honest. What I know more about is the psychological experience of empathy and that there are multiple forms of it.

For example, there's the cognitive empathy piece where, even if I've never had your experience, intellectually I get that you've suffered or understand your experience. There's emotional empathy, which is when I meet other survivors of abuse who have felt shame, I understand what that means because I've lived there. Not that our experience was the same, but our feeling was the same; we have a shared emotional experience. On top of that, the compassionate form of empathy is what we need much more of in our society. This is where we don't just cognitively understand where someone is or relate to their experience, but we feel compelled to be in a relationship with that person and be supportive.

I'm thinking about something you spoke about earlier, which is the idea that the goal of this is to talk about feelings all day long. The last thing I want to do is talk about my feelings all day long; that is not helpful. I've had experiences in my life where something happens, and I call everybody I know—my best friends, my family—saying, "Can you believe this happened? I can't take it anymore." Then I hang up the phone and do the same thing with someone else. After spending two hours on the phone telling the same story over and over again, I feel worse because I've rehearsed it 15 times. That's not emotional intelligence.

When we're emotionally intelligent, we recognize that just talking about it is not helpful. We need to be with someone who is an active listener, non-judgmental, and shows compassion. When you're compassionate, you bring it back to the person, asking, "Is this the right thing right now for you? What else might you think about?" When I've had difficult experiences, the person who says things like, "Maybe could you just jump in the hot air balloon for a minute and look down at your life? Besides this one thing that feels like the worst thing that's ever happened to you, is anything else going right?" helps me gain perspective. Suddenly, the little thing that's activating me is not so big anymore. That's emotional intelligence—not getting lost in the empathy or endlessly talking about feelings without strategies.

This goes back to something important: the permission to feel. Characteristics of non-judgment, active listening, and empathy compassion are crucial. When we think about the people who create the conditions for us to be our true selves, we don't think about the wisest, smartest fixer or problem solver. We think about the non-judgmental listener who shows compassion. Some of the fear we have is that we're going to get lost in all these feelings, but no one's asking you to get lost in their feelings. What they're asking for is support. They're asking you to just listen, maybe ask a few questions to help clarify their experience, and then help them on a path towards feeling better. I keep hearing that the way to do this properly is to ask questions.

=> 01:42:35

The best support isn't about solving problems, it's about listening without judgment.

I have tens of thousands of people who've done this. Does anyone say "fixer" or "Problem Solver"? I don't even get "smart" or "wise." When we think about the people who create the conditions for us to be our true selves, we don't think about the wisest, smartest fixer Problem Solver. We think about the non-judgmental listener who shows compassion. I just think that has to be reinforced. Some of the fear that we have is that we're going to get lost in all these feelings, but no one's asking you to get lost in their feelings. What they're asking for is support. They're asking you to just listen and to maybe ask a few questions to help clarify their experience and then help them on a path towards feeling better.

I keep hearing that the way to do this properly is to ask questions as opposed to telling people what they need to do. Your friend or this person who was an effective source of support in that moment said, "Can you get in the hot air balloon and look down on your life?" I noticed that they didn’t say, "Get in the hot air balloon for a second and then do this." As a former partner of mine said, who I'm still on great terms with, no one likes to be shifted. No one wants to be told what to do. No matter what state they’re in, high or low, no one wants somebody to come along and try and shift them or just tell them, "Go for a walk." Okay, well why? To do what? Or meditate? That one’s become equally grading when it’s probably a great thing to do, but perhaps there’s a different way posed in the form of a question that would be more effective.

The hot air balloon example also brings to mind something. I'll try and keep this as succinct as possible for your sake and for the audience's sake. Having studied stress a bit in my laboratory and experienced a lot of stress as most people have in their lifetime, it’s very clear that when we stress, our mental aperture, our visual aperture, our auditory aperture—everything shrinks, right? It contracts. We know that getting a different spatial perspective gives us a different temporal perspective. We can start thinking about our life in larger pieces and get that perspective of the things in life that are going well.

There’s a meditation that I guess it’s a meditation—I don’t know what to call it—that I started doing years ago when I was a junior professor because life was so stressful before tenure. Little did I know that it just continues to be stressful, but a pleasure to do the work. It involves basically doing a standard type meditation for a few breaths of closing my eyes and focusing on my body and what’s going on internally, but then opening my eyes and focusing on something external like my hand or the room and then going to the pale blue dot. It’s a very wide aperture. So effectively, the hot air balloon looking down—it’s distancing, right? Making this a practice not in a moment of stress but each morning as I start the day as a kind of reminder that our brains, our cognition, and our emotions go through tremendous state differentiation. We’re kind of different people under these different space-time references. When we’re in stress, we tend to get locked into one space-time reference. I’m not trying to be cosmic about this, but the nature of stress is to have us anchor to the stressor and to put up mental walls to break out of that physical walls.

It sounds like great supporters and we can help ourselves through the more unpleasant portions of the emotion scale if we want to by taking ourselves into this different perspective using spatial tools—hot air balloon, pale blue dot, questions to yourself. For example, I travel a lot and I was just in Washington State for some presentations. Before this, there were flight delays, then my flight got cancelled, and I missed a dinner. I used to get really worked up about it. Then I just take a seat at the airport, take a nice long inhale, and think, "Mark, is this really going to be something that’s going to bother you next week?" I’m working on a book, so I reframed it as an opportunity to have some space and write. You can use these techniques a lot.

Going back to my dad, as he got older, his anger did come back. I remember this one time where we were at a family dinner. I had already been in my position for a while, and there was some resentment with my father because...

=> 01:46:42

Reframe setbacks as opportunities and observe negative energy from a distance—it's a game-changer!

Before this, I was dealing with flight delays and then my flight got cancelled. I missed a dinner and I used to get really worked up about it. Now, I just take a seat at the airport, take a nice long inhale, and ask myself, "Mark, is this really going to be something that's going to bother you next week?" I'm working on a book, so I reframed it as an opportunity to have some space and write. This technique has been very useful.

Going back to my dad, as he got older, his anger resurfaced. I remember one family dinner where there was some resentment from my father. He was a blue-collar worker, a very talented air conditioning repairman, and had a good career. However, it was difficult for him when I went to graduate school and got a PhD. When I got a job at Yale, there were some emotions about that. At this dinner, he said something really gross, implying that I thought I was better than everyone else. I had to make a choice: do I start crying because I feel so violated by my father, or do I tell him off and walk out?

I decided to use a distancing technique. I made him into a movie, a TV show that I was observing and not feeling. This has proven to be one of the most powerful strategies for me. When I'm in a position with someone who has a lot of negative energy, I create that psychological distance by just putting that picture frame up there and observing it. I ask myself questions about it, like, "Wow, that's really interesting. I wonder where that's coming from. What was his childhood like that he's so angry?" This technique is very helpful.

These are very powerful techniques that can be used in real time. I use them all the time. For example, at the grocery store, I grew up lower middle class, and everything was on a budget. Now, I'm fortunate to be in a different circumstance, but I'm still cheap. My partner and I might argue about spending $7 on a bottle of organic almond milk. I have to move away from the aisle, take a little walk, and ask myself, "Mark, is this worth your relationship? The almond milk, really?"

I find that I need regulation like 300 times a day. Different strategies work for different emotions and contexts. The picture frame works when I'm angry or someone is angry with me. For my anxiety, I imagine a hot air balloon and look down. When I'm irritated with someone, I take a walk and ask myself if it's really that important. I hope people will learn that there are many amazing strategies out there, and we use them interchangeably with different emotions and contexts.

While a lot of the stereotypes from the 1930s through to the end of the 1970s portrayed people as more stoic and less emotionally expressive, there was also a tendency for passionate expressions to be rewarded. We always think of the real stoic image for both male and female phenotypes from that era. However, there was also intense, passionate expression. Now, I believe we're in a new place where there's an invitation for a broader range of emotional expressions and phenotypes.

=> 01:50:50

Passion gets celebrated, but being emotional often gets judged. Let's embrace a broader range of emotional expressions.

In the past, people were often stoic and less emotionally expressive, especially in public or with those they weren't very close to. However, there was also a tendency, at least in movies from that time, for people who were passionate to be rewarded for their expressions of passion. This represents two ends of the spectrum: the real stoic demeanor for both male and female phenotypes, as seen in films from the 30s and 40s, and intense, passionate expression.

Today, we are in a new place where there seems to be an invitation for a broader range of emotional expressions and phenotypes. As a biologist, I find the term phenotypes useful and less loaded than stereotypes. Unfortunately, the notion of people being overly emotional has a negative connotation, whereas being passionate is generally seen as positive. Historically, being labeled as emotional implied a lack of control over one's emotions, a term I find useless due to its unhelpful connotations from the past.

My graduate adviser once suggested using the term "mindful" instead of "careful" because the opposite of mindful is mindless, which is more memorable. When people say, "Why are you so emotional?" it often comes from a place of judgment, indicating discomfort with the strong emotions being expressed. Labeling someone as emotional can alienate them, leading to poor communication and unhealthy relationships. Yet, we still reward people for being passionate, even if it includes some anger, as long as it is directed towards a cause.

The term emotional is often used as a judgment and can be a form of gaslighting, where one tries to make another believe something about themselves that may not be true. This is problematic in society and can lead to low self-esteem, often stemming from childhood gaslighting and bullying. Negative comments about one's appearance or behavior can become internalized, leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy of low self-worth. We are born experience-dependent, relying on relationships, and if those relationships are cruel or involve gaslighting, it shapes how we think about ourselves.

In your book, you include a quote by Plato: "All learning has an emotional base." This highlights the relationship between emotions and learning and decision-making. For instance, in a classroom setting, if the material is not engaging or presented in a way that meets students' needs, their attention will wane. Emotions drive our attention, and if we are not feeling engaged or curious, we become bored. Boredom is not inherently bad; it simply indicates that the current presentation is not meeting our needs, leading us to seek other forms of engagement, such as doodling or distracting others.

=> 01:54:59

Emotions drive our attention—engage students emotionally to keep them focused and curious in the classroom.

Let's think about our interaction right now, as a teacher. How many of you have ever been in a classroom situation where the teacher says, "All right everybody, let's turn to page 357. Mark, you're going to read paragraph one and Andrew, you're going to read paragraph two," and your brain is immediately gone? Emotions drive our attention. If we're not feeling engaged or curious, we're going to be bored. Boredom is not a bad emotion; it just means that what's being presented and the way it's being presented is not meeting our needs. Our brain needs to do something, so we might doodle, push the kid next to us, or get on our phone. Our brains want to do things. In environments with a lot of curiosity and high engagement, attention is much better.

In my work, my whole career has been about building curriculum to help educators integrate emotions into their everyday classroom. Part of what we help them understand, going back to that mood meter, is that a lot of us, because of our dispositions, tend to speak with a certain cadence and present in a certain way. If you're someone who lives in the green quadrant—calm, content, tranquil, and peaceful—like some yoga teachers, you might say, "Let's all turn our attention to ourselves." They're great, I love yoga, but if you're always in that green quadrant, like for me, even though I live there a lot, it's like, "Give me some energy, please."

Then there's my friend who is a principal of a middle school in San Francisco and a former tennis coach. She walks into the school team saying, "Let's go, grow, grow!" every day. It's overwhelming. You also have people in the blue quadrant, who might say, "We've done some education work in the past, but let's be real, how much education reform really matters? Mark, you do all this research, but is anybody really reading it?" Such a downer. Or the person who's always in the red, activated and critical.

As someone leading—because I consider leadership as teaching, whether managing a team, teaching in a classroom, or parenting—I've got to be aware of where I live emotionally and understand that not everybody wants to be with me where I'm at. My job is to create an emotional roller coaster ride for people, to bring them on an emotional journey because that's what keeps them interested. Believe it or not, from our research and others, we know that certain emotions are better for certain things.

For example, if I want my high school students to brainstorm ideas, I'm not going to put on a Gregorian chant. I'll put on something like Lady Gaga's "Edge of Glory" to get everyone pumped up, excited, and brainstorming. But when deciding on the project, you can't be all hyped up because your brain isn't in a consensus-building mode. When we bring our energy level down, we become more thoughtful and careful.

People often ask why unpleasant, low-energy emotions would be helpful. Believe it or not, we can be much more detail-oriented in that state. For example, when I do grant writing, I put on classical music to zone out distractions and get into a place where I can focus on every detail. You can't do that when you're super excited; your brain doesn't operate that way.

Lastly, people ask why the red quadrant would be useful. The best story I have for that involves a collaboration with Lady Gaga.

=> 01:59:01

Low energy and unpleasant feelings can boost attention to detail, while high energy and passion can drive impactful presentations.

People often wonder why unpleasant, low-energy emotions like feeling blue can be helpful. Believe it or not, we can be much more detail-oriented when we're in that low-energy, unpleasant place. For instance, I do a lot of grant writing, and I find it beneficial to put on classical music, zone everyone out, and get into that meticulous mindset where I can focus on every detail—dotting every "i," ensuring every comma is correct, and making sure every dash is in place. You can't achieve this level of detail when you're super excited; your brain just doesn't operate that way.

People also ask why red, high-energy emotions are beneficial. A compelling example comes from a collaboration I did with Lady Gaga and her Born This Way Foundation. We conducted a study of thousands of high school students across America, examining their emotions in school. We found that 77% of their feelings were unpleasant, with tired, bored, and stressed being the top three emotions. This study was part of a larger project called the Emotion Revolution, which we presented at the White House.

When presenting these findings to the Secretary of Education, I had to decide on the emotional tone to adopt. I chose the red quadrant—high energy, low pleasantness—because I wanted the education department to be fired up by the research. I wanted them to feel the passion and anger I felt about the injustice of students feeling this way in our schools. I emphasized that 77% of students feeling tired, bored, and stressed would not lead to a nation of innovative and creative individuals. Understanding emotions and being intentional about the emotions we create in environments—whether at home, school, or the workplace—is crucial because certain emotions work better for certain tasks.

Your examples remind me of a brilliant 5-year-old who realized that his emotional state was like the weather—it changes. To have that perspective, he must have moved through different emotional quadrants: from blue (low energy, low pleasantness) to green (high pleasantness, low energy), to yellow (high energy, high pleasantness), and red (high energy, low pleasantness). In a RULER school, kids check in on their emotions multiple times a day, recognizing that emotions can change and that they can shift their feelings to be better learners.

Additionally, there's an app called How We Feel that allows people to track their emotions throughout the day by pressing the screen to denote where they are on the energy versus pleasantness scale. This app is freely available, and we'll provide a link to it in the show notes. I've used it before and found it immensely useful for thinking about emotions along this spectrum.

=> 02:03:17

Tracking your emotions can reveal surprising patterns and boost your well-being.

I'm feeling this way and I'm about to do something with that feeling is not great. I can shift out of that feeling or I can still feel that feeling and still be a good learner. I mean, that's incredible to me that we can do that, and I see it in thousands of schools, and it's done remarkably well.

You've developed an app that's freely available that allows people to essentially press the screen to denote where they are on this energy versus pleasantness scale at numerous times throughout the day and night if they choose. We'll provide a link to this app in the show note caption; it's called How We Feel. I've used it before, and a previous version—I need to update and get the new version, and I will. I found it to be immensely useful just to start thinking about emotions along this energy versus pleasantness axis.

After one does this for a few days or weeks, maybe checking in and touching the app a couple of times a day, maybe again in the evening upon waking, what sort of data or information does one get back that can be informative toward being a healthier, happier person?

What's really cool about the app and the reason why we have an app is that technology can be super helpful in this instance for building self-awareness. If I set reminders, which you can do on the app, to check in in the morning, maybe after lunch, or right before I go home—you pick whatever works for you, or you can do it randomly—and then you aggregate your data across time. Now you have instances of your emotions over time.

What's also cool about it is that you can disaggregate your data by things like who you're with, where you're at, or what you're doing, and then you can analyze that. You get your little mood meters that are all different colors. For example, you might think, "Wow, I thought I was more in the yellow at work, but I'm actually more in the blue at work," or "I thought when I'm with this person, I'm actually feeling calm, but actually, when I look at my data, I'm always anxious with that person." So it runs a reverse correlation.

You can just look at your report, and then it asks you questions to get more insights. Also importantly, we've embedded a lot of the strategies that I've been talking about, such as distancing strategies, breathing exercises, mindfulness exercises, and gratitude exercises.

Gratitude, by the way, is something I was thinking about in the back of my head as we were speaking about the Envy Reduction Program. I think the number one thing is gratitude. If our brains are just endlessly searching for what's better out there than what we have, we're not experiencing any gratitude for what we have. I spend a lot of time helping people really understand—take a look, look where you're at as a student, think about what you have the opportunity to learn, think about the opportunities you have in life. All of a sudden, it's like, "Oh yeah, my life is pretty good," as opposed to "Everyone else's life is better than mine."

Gratitude, for me, sometimes feels cliche these days—you know, you've heard so much about it. I can't talk strongly enough about both the practice and the science that supports it.

Amen to that. When I did an episode about gratitude some years ago, I was positively shocked to see the data. The data on gratitude practices are so striking in terms of whether one looks at neurotransmitter expression or happiness rating scales, learning ability—so many things are improved by even short gratitude practices.

It was interesting for me to realize that not only do effective gratitude practices include thinking about what one has but also in observing others expressing their own gratitude, either towards us or towards others. There's something about the human brain that really thrives on gratitude.

The other thing worth mentioning is that these students, through a gratitude practice, could realize the opportunity that they have. A lot of people default to the assumption that a gratitude practice will make them complacent and stop seeking to reach their goals, but actually, the opposite is true. There's a smaller research as far as I understand—maybe it's expanded in recent years—where if people do a regular gratitude practice, even five minutes a day, their achievement actually increases as well.

Gratitude and complacency are not in the same bin. These are all evidence-based strategies to help us have a better life. Clearly, you're on a mission, and it's a wonderful, in fact, admirable one at that, to bring more emotional awareness.

=> 02:07:22

Gratitude practice doesn't make you complacent; it actually boosts your achievement.

I think it is worth mentioning that you said these students could, through a gratitude practice, realize the opportunity that they have. Many people default to the assumption that a gratitude practice will make them complacent and stop seeking to reach their goals. However, the opposite is true. There is smaller research, as far as I understand, which may have expanded in recent years, showing that if people do a regular gratitude practice, even for five minutes a day, their achievement actually increases. Gratitude and complacency are not in the same bin. These are all evidence-based strategies to help us have a better life.

Clearly, you're on a mission, and it's a wonderful, in fact, admirable one at that, to bring more emotional awareness to kids and adults to better the world. I don't think I'm overreaching there; I think that's the goal. I'd like to get back to your origin story a bit to understand a little more about the motivation behind this goal. You've written about it in your book and spoken a little today about the fact that you were bullied pretty viciously and were also the target of abuse. When one thinks about bullying, we hopefully naturally default to thinking about how we can stop bullies. But I'm guessing this is a two-sided issue. I'm not trying to create empathy for bullies here, but in order to really disintegrate the bullying problem down to zero, which would be the ultimate goal, we need to get into the minds of both the bullied and the bullies. As uncomfortable as that might be, maybe this is an opportunity to embrace some of the very practices that you've been talking about.

Could you tell us a little about how, as a kid, you perceived your bullies? I'm very curious about that. I can say I've never been bullied, but I've also not been a bully. I was thinking about this during our brief break there. I hate bullies; I hate them. It activates me physically and makes me angry, makes me want to do something about it. But as somebody who was bullied, how did you perceive your bullies? Did you think they were correct or the authority? How have you embraced whatever understanding that was and morphed it over time to think about how to solve the bullying problem from both perspectives?

When I think about my 8-year-old self, 10-year-old self, 11-year-old self being bullied, remember, bullying is about a power imbalance, the intent to harm, and the repetition of it. These are the three key factors in bullying: it's repeated, it's intended to harm, and there is a power imbalance. That puts you in a really powerless position when you have nobody to support you, no upstanders, no one else around you to help you get out of the situation. What happens is that you feel fear. What I felt, and it's been the emotion I've struggled with my whole life, is shame. When you're bullied, you are often made to feel like you are not worthy, which diminishes self-worth. The bully has power over you and can do whatever they want to you, say whatever they want to say, spit on you, throw you into the locker, and do crazy stuff, which is what happened to me. And guess what? There's nothing you can do about it. When you're in an environment where nobody does anything about it, it creates despair.

One of my hardest memories of being a student around 10 years old is being in a classroom in math, wearing a vest like a down vest as a form of protection. It was my thing to hold on to, like my little vest was going to be protective of me. The only problem was I had two bullies sitting beside me, and what they did throughout the entire class was use a pen to write things about me on my jacket.

=> 02:11:34

Adults must act when they see bullying—ignoring it is not an option.

This happened to me, and guess what, there's nothing you can do about it. When you're in an environment where nobody does anything about it, it creates despair. You can see how there's a lot of emotions there. One of my hardest memories of being a student, around 10 years old, is being in a classroom in math. I was wearing a vest, like a down vest, as protection. It was my thing to hold on to, like my little vest was going to be protective of me. The only problem was I had two bullies sitting beside me, and throughout the entire class, they used a pen to draw and write things about me on my jacket.

I can still remember locking eyes with my teacher, and him just looking away. That feeling of complete despair, like how is it that I'm not being protected by this adult in my community? That's the issue we're trying to solve for now. I could make all kinds of excuses about the teacher—maybe he didn't really notice, but I don't buy it because it was repeated over time and happened a lot. Maybe he misread my facial expression, but I'm not buying that either. I think it was either he had a mindset of "this is a rite of passage, you're going to toughen up, kiddo, or you're not going to survive in your Clifton High School," or he just had no idea what to do about it and decided to let it go. None of those are acceptable options for me anymore.

We need to teach people skills; people need to be emotionally perceptive. Emotions are signals. My facial expression, which was probably one of depression, fear, and shame, was not one of a big smile. It's pretty clear when you're wearing a jacket, sitting in your classroom with a hoodie on, doing your work, and people are writing on you, you're not in a good place. How that perception of my experience and emotion was not a signal to do something blows my mind. I can't imagine an adult being in a situation with a child being treated that way and not thinking of taking action. Yet, we see it all the time, even nowadays.

Research shows that bullying has not really decreased in the last 30-40 years. About a third of middle school and high school kids get bullied each day in school. This is the point of my work: a lot of the programs out there are like, "let's create school rules." But who's going to follow these rules? How are rules teaching people skills? It's not working. My whole thinking is that we need to teach empathy, perspective-taking, doing role plays, and having people understand what it feels like to be in that situation.

You mentioned you've never been bullied and never have bullied, which is great for you. It might be harder for you to understand because empathy might be a little tougher. That's part of the reason I asked the question. I was debating whether or not to ask it that way because I didn't want to come across as insensitive. Precisely because I have sat on neither side of the bullying equation, it's a foreign thing to me. It also makes me realize, especially now after what you just said, that while I was in high school, there was probably a lot of bullying going on that I missed.

I had some friends that could definitely be classified as misfits. Looking back, they hung out with my group of friends because we were into different things and weren't part of the typical cliques. We grew up in the John Hughes film era, where you had the jocks, the hippies, the skateboarders, etc. I had my crowd and was friends with a number of people outside that crowd. There were kids who hung around us because they felt safe with us. We could be a little scary if we wanted to be, but we weren't the type to bully.

=> 02:15:30

Sometimes the people who seem the most different just need a safe place to belong.

I had some friends that could definitely be classified as misfits. Looking back, they hung out with my group of friends because we were into different things. We grew up in the John Hughes film era, where you had the jocks versus the hippies versus the skateboarders. I had my crowd and was friends with a number of people outside that crowd. However, there were these kids that would hang around us who weren't into the same things we were. Reflecting now, I realize they did it because they felt safe with us. We could be a little scary if we wanted to be, but we weren't the type to go out and be scary. They must have sensed some safety with us. I have very fond memories of those kids and still know some of them now.

I asked that way in part because I realized I missed a lot of what was going on in high school for other reasons. Even in academic culture as an adult, I witnessed bullying at meetings where people would make fun of others in a way that suppressed the likelihood of people asking questions. This is a different form of posturing and bullying, making students afraid to raise their hands and ask questions at meetings. It's intimidation. I experienced that too. When I was younger in my career, I was giving a speech, and people were like, "Oh, he does the field research, that's soft science." I was very fortunate and hurt by it because doing experiments in the laboratory with college sophomores is a lot easier than trying to randomize 60 schools in Brooklyn and Queens, New York, and find effects of your program. It's hard research, really difficult. Working on humans is much harder for all sorts of reasons. They are not on the same genetic background; you can't just put them in a cage and take them out the same way. There are issues with animal work as well, but embracing human research at all is an immense challenge. The idea that it would be viewed as soft is laughable to me.

I was very fortunate that a very senior professor, Ed Ziggler, one of the co-founders of Head Start, became my adult Uncle Marvin. I was giving this speech, and people were trying to demolish my presentation and research. He was revered as a famous developmental psychologist. He stood up, slammed the table, and said, "I like this research." I needed someone to stand up for me because I was like the little postdoc there, needing support. My argument is that it's a human right to be protected. Now, I can protect myself, but I'll give you another example.

About eight years ago, I was giving a speech at our university to a bunch of funders. It was me and another professor who I will not name, who is bigger than I am and has a rough reputation of being a bully. I went on first. Granted, I'm a pretty good presenter. After my presentation, he got on stage and changed his presentation to show a video of a kid being horrifically bullied, which had nothing to do with his research. He played the video, laughing to himself, and said, "I just want to let people know that was Mark before he got his black belt." I thought, "What a dick.

=> 02:19:28

Standing up to bullies can be tough, even as an adult, but it's never too late to find the courage to speak up and protect yourself.

I went on first, and granted, I'm a pretty good presenter. He was going on after me. I just thanked the audience and went to the side. He got on stage and changed his presentation, showing a video of a kid being horrifically bullied, which had nothing to do with his research. I was thinking, "What the hell's going on here?" He played the video, laughing to himself, and said, "I just want to let people know that was Mark before he got his black belt." I thought, "What a dick." It was not cool.

What was really interesting to me as a psychologist is that in that moment, I regressed to 10 years old. Psychologically, all the memories, feelings, and bodily reactions came back. Luckily, I have a fifth-degree black belt, a PhD in Psychology, and have been teaching emotional intelligence for 25 years. I had to remind myself, "Mark, you're 50, you've got a black belt." It took a lot to recover, and I had to make a choice. I was still intimidated by that, and it makes me sad to admit it because I don't like that I'm at this place in my life where I can still be intimidated by bullies. But it's how I feel, and I have to accept that.

In that presentation, I decided, "Mark, you got to say something. You're going to prove to yourself that you can do it." After he was done, I waited a little while and went up to him. I said, "I have no idea what motivated you to show that video, but number one, it was not cool, and number two, it can never happen again. Never." I can cry now thinking about it because it was very difficult for me, even as an adult. I didn't run away, but I took my breaths and felt proud that I was able to handle myself. It may sound strange to some people, being an adult who's a psychologist with a fifth-degree black belt, but I have to reinforce that to make myself feel strong.

It was a powerful moment for me, having the courage to face a bully. Interestingly enough, the guy treated me like I was the president of the university after that. My point in telling that story is that I was 50, which is old to cultivate the skills needed to deal with that very difficult situation. My dream is that, as the developer of the curriculum, I didn't live it. Talking about neuroscience, I'm not wired like that 5-year-old who grows up in an environment where every day they're checking in on their feelings.

This reminds me of another story. I was in a school in Brooklyn that has been using our program for a decade. The kids wanted to meet me, and the principal, who is my former student, said they could ask me anything. One girl, who must have been in sixth grade, said, "It's really hard for me to understand your experience." I asked why, and she said, "I've been going to this school since kindergarten, and I can't think of a day that someone didn't ask me how I was feeling." It's powerful when you think about her neural development—all the pathways being built for these children in thousands of schools to learn about their feelings, understand why they're feeling the way they are, interact with other kids, and learn strategies together in a cooperative environment. This work evolves throughout our lives, from learning about sadness and disappointment in kindergarten to understanding despair, alienation, and exclusion as we grow older.

=> 02:23:41

Emotional intelligence evolves with us, and standing up to bullies at any age is a profound act of courage.

When you think about neural development, consider all the pathways being built for children in thousands of schools. They are learning to understand their feelings, why they feel the way they do, and how to interact with other kids. They observe how others express and deal with their emotions, learning strategies together in a cooperative environment. This process becomes more complex with development. In kindergarten, children learn about sadness and disappointment, but as they grow, they learn about despair, alienation, and exclusion. These concepts evolve throughout our lives. For instance, what anger meant at age five is different from what it meant at ages 10, 15, 25, or now at 55.

Your description of confronting this bully, who I hesitate to call a colleague due to the lack of collegiality, was an embarrassment for the University. More importantly, your ability to confront them is, to me and anyone who hears that story, the definition of courage. In moments where we feel small and collapsed on ourselves, without resources or support, you internalized the lessons from your uncle and acted on them. This act of courage is inspirational and a reminder for adults being bullied that it is important to calmly, directly, and firmly express boundaries. You gave a strong "no," akin to correcting a puppy in danger, but in this case, it was a human who needed to be educated about boundaries and collegial behavior.

Punishment, however, never works unless it is consistent and harsh, which nobody wants because it doesn't feel good or teach anything. For example, a principal once suspended a child for giving a teacher the finger, extending the suspension to avoid seeing the child for ten days. This approach teaches nothing about empathy, self-regulation, or emotional awareness. The child is thrown out without skills into an unsupportive environment. This needs to change, though it happens less frequently now.

As a prevention scientist, I aim to cultivate a society where people have the skills to navigate their emotions, build healthy relationships, make sound decisions, maintain good mental health, and achieve their dreams. It occurred to me that you are effectively doing what your uncle did for you, but for millions of people. God bless Uncle Marvin. One of the most profound moments of my career was after writing my book and during my book tour in Westchester, New York. I had never spoken about my uncle or my abuse in such detail, which truly speaks to the courage it takes to share these personal stories.

=> 02:27:47

Transform your pain into purpose and make a lasting impact on others.

I don't want to wait until everyone has an anxiety disorder and everyone's been bullied. I want to cultivate a society where people have the skills they need to navigate their emotions, know how to build healthy relationships, make sound decisions, have good mental health, and achieve their dreams. It occurred to me just now that I am effectively doing what my uncle did for me, but for millions and millions of people. God bless Uncle Marvin.

One of the most profound moments of my career was just after I had written my book and was on my book tour in Westchester, New York, giving a speech. I had never spoken about my uncle in that level of detail nor my abuse. It was not until I was 48 and writing this book that I decided to share why I am so passionate. I hated school and was bullied, but I believe I was robbed of my emotional life as a child because of the abuse and my circumstances. I felt I needed to share that, not as the focus, but to be real.

While sharing about Uncle Marvin, the sixth-grade teacher from Monticello, New York, a man in the audience had an epiphany. He asked if I was talking about Marvin Moore, the sixth-grade social studies teacher from Monticello, New York. When I confirmed, he revealed that my uncle Marvin was also his sixth-grade teacher 45 years ago and was the reason he became a teacher. I was blown away and excited as I had never met one of my uncle's actual students.

After my speech, I interviewed this man for 45 minutes about his memories of my uncle's class. He remembered details of my uncle's facial expressions, body language, teaching methods, and feelings. It was astonishing. At the end of our conversation, he asked me a profound question: "For whom are you an Uncle Marvin?" This question made me reflect on my life, my time with my family, and whether I was giving non-judgment, active listening, empathy, and compassion. It made a profound difference for me, and I try hard to be an Uncle Marvin, despite the challenges of time and other factors.

It's absolutely clear to me that you are extremely passionate about teaching people what emotions are and how to work with them, giving them clear systems and tools to do that. Through your work and public education efforts, including your graciousness in sharing with us, it's evident that people can greatly benefit from these tools. Your book, which includes very personal things, helps readers understand and learn how they can make themselves, others, and the world a better place.

I appreciate the enormous amplification of the hard work you've done, transmuting hard experiences into so much good. On behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, I extend an enormous debt of gratitude. This is truly important work, and I don't say that lightly. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark Brackett. To learn more about his work and find links to his book "Permission to Feel," as well as other resources, please see the links in the show notes.

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